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Donald Trump elected 45th President of the United States


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19 minutes ago, Lucas said:

The question we have to ask is HOW we make these people care.

My strategy is to ignore people who absolutely will not empathize and focus on people who do have the capacity to empathize who might just not realize how bad things are and are willing to listen and help.

 

And again, just stepping into awkward situations where you see racism is not that hard for any white person to do. I'm not asking people to go waaaaaay out of their way and become vigilante heroes scouring their neighborhoods for racist behavior and stopping it. I'm saying, when you see it, use your privilege to stop it. Tell your racist uncle to shut up with his racist talk because you're not comfortable with it. Be rude to your family members who say or do things that are racist. Make them not want to do those things around you because you'll tell them to stop it. Be annoying.

 

Does that kill the root problem? No, but if enough people do that, people might just start thinking there's something wrong with what they're doing or at the very least, they'll keep it to themselves until they die.

Edited by Mao
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Just now, Mao said:

My strategy is to ignore people who absolutely will not empathize and focus on people who do have the capacity to empathize who might just not realize how bad things are and are willing to listen and help.

 

And again, just stepping into awkward situations where you see racism is not that hard for any white person to do. I'm not asking people to go waaaaaay out of their way and become vigilante heroes scouring their neighborhoods for racist behavior and stopping it. I'm saying, when you see, use your privilege to stop it. Tell your racist uncle to shut up with his racist talk because you're not comfortable with it. Be rude to your family members who say or do things that are racist. Make them not want to do those things around you because you'll tell them to stop it. Be annoying.

 

Does that kill the root problem? No, but if enough people do that, people might just start thinking there's something wrong with what they're doing or at the very least, they'll keep it to themselves until they die.

I think something worth noting is that I honestly believe that most people have the ability to empathize, but unfortunately the average stranger with something to say won't do it.  Like my dad has been a blue-collar conservative his entire life that, if any of you people argued with him, probably wouldn't change his mind.  If you can find their empathy for something and then guide it and relate it to a topic they'd normally disagree with, it's possible.  But yeah, that begins at the level you say, where if you see family members being garbage their racist connotations come into conflict with their empathy for family or friends.

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5 minutes ago, darkloli99 said:

And when that happens, I'll be chewing on my hat and eating my white privilege. But I'm still not going to rebuke someone for believing that, for instance, the chance of nuclear war with Russia is the greater evil than the chance of Trump taking away gay marriage or abortion. You may think that the latter is a far more likely scenario, but some people don't, and until we get some real proof in the pudding, I'm not giving them shit for that.

Well yeah, you're right that your privilege makes it a less pressing issue so you don't feel like you can rebuke those people. That makes perfect sense because you don't understand or have experienced discrimination or threat of death and probably never will. I mean, if Pence saying he wants to use the Supreme Court to overturn Oberfell vs Hodges I don't know what more you want other than a law actually passing through the Supreme Court overturning it. If you don't think a homophobic VP isn't going to give the rest of the country who are homophobic a reason to start believing it's okay to start hating gay people again, I think you're underestimating Americans and their capacity to start hating groups if given permission.

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1 hour ago, Sir Grim Locksmith VIII said:

I was once told that the most important person in your life is yourself. What's not to say that being a little selfish is a good thing? You're not an asshole if you just want to mind your business. We can only do so much for the disadvantaged before we begin to give out ourselves. That's not to say we should succumb to a dog-eat-dog society. No, far from that. And that's not to say we should simply ignore the disadvantaged. Hell, that's what made the Holocaust and Apartheid and Segregation possible. 

 

I'm just saying that someone isn't a piece of shit if they decide not to partake in a peaceful protest, donate to charity, or apologize on behalf of a morally bankrupt ideology that happens to share a similar skin color. 

 

I'm sorry Mao. I really am. You bring up good points, and our argument from two nights ago certainly cleared my head a bit, but I can't prevent myself from calling you out on this...whatever the hell this is. 

 

Of course people are going to vote for self-interests. The frustration comes from the fact when people do not understand what others have to lose and deny that have enabled someone who will do real damage.  Failure to own up to what your decision will do is willful ignorance of those who are disadvantaged; and pain is only added when one's response to why I should lose marriage rights and anti-discrimination protection is they were unaware of Pence's history and under their own bastardized version of Islam I'm safer with Trump anyway as if they are a better position to speak what I have to face over the next four years. 

 

People will vote for their self-interests; if they are going to do that, the least I can ask if they are fully aware of what they are doing when they're at the polls.

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17 minutes ago, Mao said:

Well yeah, you're right that your privilege makes it a less pressing issue so you don't feel like you can rebuke those people.

Nah, that's not my privilege, I just find Clinton legitimately horrifying and sympathize with others who feel likewise. That doesn't mean I can't sympathize with people who are terrified of Trump, too. Again, claiming that it's entirely the result of ignorance and privilege is pretty much the fastest way you can disenfranchise people from giving you any consideration at all, because...

 

Quote

That makes perfect sense because you don't understand or have experienced discrimination or threat of death and probably never will.

 

... yes, I do and I have, and your assumption based entirely on the color of my skin really kills all motivation to give you the time of day.

 

But to address the rest of that post anyway because I'm not a frail child, I will say this: that hatred was going to be an issue regardless of what validation they got. I can see one of two things happening as a result of them getting it. Best-case scenario is that it's empty rhetoric employed by his team to win over more conservative votes and they just get to be smug little shits for four years. At worst he'll let the states decide how to handle things and the movement for marginalized groups will gain more wind in its sail than ever before, hopefully enough to encourage Democrats to pick an actual human being to represent their party and throw Trump the fuck out. Either possibility seems pretty okay to me. The moment it gets worse than that I'll be eating my words and joining the protests. Better late than never.

Edited by darkloli99
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23 minutes ago, darkloli99 said:

And when that happens, I'll be chewing on my hat and eating my white privilege. But I'm still not going to rebuke someone for believing that, for instance, the chance of nuclear war with Russia is the greater evil than the chance of Trump taking away gay marriage or abortion. You may think that the latter is a far more likely scenario, but some people don't, and until we get some real proof in the pudding, I'm not giving them shit for that.

 

Eh. I'll respect that.

 

I vehemently disagree, war with Russia is some straight conspiracy on levels in 9/11 truthers would think sounds crazy,  but I'll respect the fact you aren't willing to just disregarding them.

 

 

 

One of the biggest problems we got right now is drawing lines in sand right now amongst allies. Now, I know why they're doing it and I totally sympathize. It's hard to look at someone saying, "Well, I'm totally with you guys in heart, but maybe we need to be tolerant and try to respect and understand their decision" when it's felt like you've just been thrown under the bus and not go, "The literal fuck is wrong with you right now", but end of the day, that's not helping. It just isn't.

 

Yeah, you know what, they're right. It falls on the shoulders of the marginalized to be sympathetic and understand and it shouldn't, but end of the day, if that's what needs to be done to make the world better, that's what we gotta do.

 

 

I've had, not personal per say, but close enough experience with "things" I would hazard to call people. Recall that girls father I mentioned much earlier in the thread. For so long, I wanted this kinds of people to know only the absolute most wretched pain humanity can offer them. And I still feel that way. But I also understand that, not only is that not helping, it's actively making the world worse. So I'll champion rehabilitation, fight against capital punishment, ect ect. through grit teeth because I think it's better for everyone, and only because I think it's better for everyone.

 

I think is very much another one of those times. What I want to happen and what needs to happen are not the same. They way the world should be, doesn't change the way it is.

 

 

I know we're all scared and dismayed, and look at other people and cannot even begin to comprehend their thought process, but end of the day, lashing out isn't going to help. On this day, the alt-right showed that they are a legitimate political power and needs to be played nice to. Not because we should, but because we have to.

 

 

The left flew way too close to right so we could shout at them. Let's not do that again.

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1 minute ago, Sheri said:

It falls on the shoulders of the marginalized to be sympathetic and understand

No. No it absolutely does not. Being sympathetic to frail white voters who felt that their issues like border security (code words for being racist to Mexicans), war with Russia (are you fucking kidding me), and getting their jobs back (it's never going to happen. we've moved past needing factory jobs because they're all automated these days) is not required of people who lives are going to be made shit because of their choice.

 

They need to realize that their vote has enabled people to be shit to marginalized groups. It's not a difficult thing to comprehend and white people should not have to get out of it because it hurts their feelings.

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59 minutes ago, Lucas said:

I agree with the idea that you don't have to be a political warrior.  The simple fact is that everybody only has so much real estate for empathy, and not everybody is cut out for social activism.  Overexposure to the media and the discussion surrounding it only breeds apathy or contempt to the unprepared.  Hell, there are people I know who care about social activism and I think they honestly aren't helping the problems anymore, and present from this election the apathy and contempt has set in for many people.  There are people in this thread who want to remain involved in social and political platforms but they don't have the capacity to empathize with causes that are important to people.  Objectivity and "facts" sound nice on paper, but the Catch-22 is that those definitions will vary wildly due to exposure, morality, and personal experience.  You can't make a white person believe shit about racial issues unless there's literally a klansman beating the hell out of a minority talking about how much he hates niggers.  The concept of subtle or institutionalized discrimination doesn't exist to them because they're incapable of empathizing on that basic level.

 

When it comes to asking us to empathize, the question has to be asked: what is enough?  It's a nebulous concept to evaluate, but the only thing we know is that however much we're giving now, it isn't enough because these problems keep getting worse.  But when you're dealing with people like the K-On Cuckservative or darling cirrhosis, the question of empathy shouldn't be the quantity they should be giving, it's HOW TO because they've displayed they're incapable of it.

And that has always been the problem.  It's not enough to ask to what extent do you want to help LGBT+, women, and PoC.  Because that extent is "little to none", we already know the answer to that.  The question we have to ask is HOW we make these people care.

 

Right. I never studied law, criminality, social justice, government, and economics, so I think I'd be less helpful to join any causes. If anything, I could accidentally hurt my cause. I'm not a really good debater.  

 

I actually participated in my AP Government class when it came to the 2008 election. I tried so hard to research and look up his policies, but I knew there were others be prepared to take on the debates. The only thing I helped was when we were asked about a NASA question, and the rest of my team didn't know the answer. I remembered a piece of research that I left behind backstage in the auditorium, looked for it, and got together with my friends to tell them the answer. That was magical.  

 

Obama won the results of high school a few days later.  

 

Still, I got a C or whatever in that class because taking on government is actually really difficult to comprehend.

 

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As for fighting against those who hate in my community.... there's barely any where I live. It's actually very peaceful. And by that I mean, there hasn't been any hate crime. And, I live in such a community that takes pride in... everything. Or that I'm aware of. My mom and dad keep me updated, but they never have brought it up. Maybe I'm jaded. 

 

I have a few friends who are Trump supporters... but sadly, I don't see them often to talk about that issue. I should've asked more, but I can't tell a person to change their perspective overnight. There are sadly those kind of people who are headstrong. It seemed like they really resented the whole DNC thing more than anything.

 

Still, I think my whole family is Democratic. ... We all live in California. So, getting them to argue is not really possible... When they're with me. 

 

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I have no reason to protest where I live because... it's strangely too peaceful. There hasn't been any moment of protests where I come from. Discussions have been really civil, and it's scary to thing fights haven't broken out yet. And, there hasn't been a level of frustration where I am. It's ridiculous.  

 

I have no money, plans, or anything to move elsewhere to see that situation. I think I'm in a paradise, that's far away from the rest of the world. 

 

 With what has been going on... the city has been unusually accepting of this.  

 

Then again, I don't look at the news.  

 

If Trump does arrive in my area in the following months... that's where stuff could get real. There's a certain amount of people in my area who don't like him. Plain and simple. I feel like they understand where you're coming from, @Mao. 

Edited by XLW
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2 minutes ago, Sheri said:

I'm not saying it's morally correct, I'm saying this is something we HAVE to do to gain any ground with them.

 

 

I'm not any more thrilled about it than you are, but beating into the skulls isn't working, so now we gotta just kiss ass instead.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... no. 

 

I'm not going to sit and play nice when these people are coming at me to take my right to marry, get Healthcare, or buy a cake.

 

 

Edited by Mao
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10 minutes ago, Mao said:

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... no. 

 

I'm not going to sit and play nice when these people are coming at me to take my right to marry, get Healthcare, or buy a cake.

 

I totally understand, I don't just sympathize or empathize, I'm right there with you. But you're not gonna get you want like that, as this election proved.

 

Plus, I'm not talking about playing nice with active homophones, I'm talking about the people who voted for these representatives IN SPITE of that. Because they were more concerned about about their jobs, about Russia, about boarder security than they were about your rights. And, end of the day, the rust belt and the alt-right have real political power, as this election proved. Pushing them away and ostracizing them isn't gonna work because, even if you cut them out of society, guess what? They still voting right, and they'll fuck you 6 ways to Sunday with it.

 

 

It's time to swallow our pride, put a tails between our legs and say, "Well, you guys have been pretty screwed over by the economy and big business." What we think of them as people and what we think of their plights is irrelevant. They exists as votes we need on our side, end of story.

Edited by Sheri
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Midwest protests:

 

Michigan has been doing it for a couple of days too. One at the University of Michigan and one in Detroit.

 

Here's some from today:

 

http://college.usatoday.com/2016/11/11/michigan-state-holds-1000-student-march-to-protest-donald-trump/

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/picture-gallery/news/michigan/2016/11/11/anti-trump-protests-in-michigan-and-around-the-nation/93645418/

 

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2016/11/two_detroit-area_anti-trump_pr.html

 

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2016/11/11/michigan-rallies-seek-unity-after-election-trump-protested/

 

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2016/11/11/donald-trump-protest-planned-royal-oak/93641088/

 

Heard via Michael Moore on All in with Chris Hayes that they're even protesting up in Traverse City.

 

Around the country:

 

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/trump-protests-surge-across-nation-231226

 

Heard there were some in Atlanta, Nashville, Milwaukee via him (Michael Moore). 

 

And even around the world:

 

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/g8278340/photos-trump-protests/

 

A Million Women's March is planned in January as well.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Lance's Dragonite
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1 minute ago, Zora said:

 

Of course people are going to vote for self-interests. The frustration comes from the fact when people do not understand what others have to lose and deny that have enabled someone who will do real damage.  Failure to own up to what your decision will do is willful ignorance of those who are disadvantaged; and pain is only added when one's response to why I should lose marriage rights and anti-discrimination protection is they were unaware of Pence's history and under their own bastardized version of Islam I'm safer with Trump anyway as if they are a better position to speak what I have to face over the next four years. 

 

People will vote for their self-interests; if they are going to do that, the least I can ask if they are fully aware of what they are doing when they're at the polls.

To be honest I was unaware of Pence's anti-gay history until Gio (Lance's Dragonite) informed me about it. I'm sorry to hear that. Hope he doesn't have any power or relevance post-inauguration. 

 

My post was concerned with the concept of selfishness vs. selflessness in general. I'm anti-Trump myself because of the amount of despicable shit he's done and said and promised as well as the fact that he's an embarrassment to the Republican party and capitalism in general. I just hate being antagonized for shit I haven't done.

 

Also, @Sheri, don't play nice with bigots. You keep fighting the good fight, otherwise they'll just recognize and exploit your submission. Also also, I apologize if I haven't responded to your posts. I can't articulate any proper responses myself.

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3 minutes ago, Sir Grim Locksmith VIII said:

To be honest I was unaware of Pence's anti-gay history until Gio (Lance's Dragonite) informed me about it. I'm sorry to hear that. Hope he doesn't have any power or relevance post-inauguration. 

 

My post was concerned with the concept of selfishness vs. selflessness in general. I'm anti-Trump myself because of the amount of despicable shit he's done and said and promised as well as the fact that he's an embarrassment to the Republican party and capitalism in general. I just hate being antagonized for shit I haven't done.

 

Also, @Sheri, don't play nice with bigots. You keep fighting the good fight, otherwise they'll just recognize and exploit your submission. Also also, I apologize if I haven't responded to your posts. I can't articulate any proper responses myself.

 

I hope so too, @Sir Grim Locksmith VIII. But if Trump gets impeached some how... we'd be stuck with Pence. And he's far worse in a lot of ways than Trump.

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1 minute ago, Sir Grim Locksmith VIII said:

Also, @Sheri, don't play nice with bigots. You keep fighting the good fight, otherwise they'll just recognize and exploit your submission. Also also, I apologize if I haven't responded to your posts. I can't articulate any proper responses myself.

 

Oh god, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying THAT. It's that kinda weak willed spineless shite that got the Democrats where they are now after Republicans bullied the shit out of them for years. I'm not saying to compromise in anyway at all on our ideals.

 

 

What I'm saying is that the people who voted IN SPITE of the Republican's tickets bigotry, we need to acknowledged their concerns, regardless of how legitimate we think they are. The people who aren't bigots, the people who just thought our rights were less important that the other concerns they have. We need their votes on our side, so, regardless of if we think they are insane, we need to at least afford them a "I see where you are coming from." if we want them to afford us the same.

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1 minute ago, Sheri said:

 

Oh god, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying THAT. It's that kinda weak willed spineless shite that got the Democrats where they are now after Republicans bullied the shit out of them for years. I'm not saying to compromise in anyway at all on our ideals.

 

 

What I'm saying is that the people who voted IN SPITE of the Republican's tickets bigotry, we need to acknowledged their concerns, regardless of how legitimate we think they are. The people who aren't bigots, the people who just thought our rights were less important that the other concerns they have. We need their votes on our side, so, regardless of if we think they are insane, we need to at least afford them a "I see where you are coming from." if we want them to afford us the same.

Aye. My apologies for misunderstanding. 

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7 minutes ago, Sheri said:

What I'm saying is that the people who voted IN SPITE of the Republican's tickets bigotry, we need to acknowledged their concerns, regardless of how legitimate we think they are. The people who aren't bigots, the people who just thought our rights were less important that the other concerns they have. We need their votes on our side, so, regardless of if we think they are insane, we need to at least afford them a "I see where you are coming from." if we want them to afford us the same.

No. I'm sorry but I'm not going to do that. These people put people into power that will try to ruin my life. I'm going to fucking fight like hell now to keep my rights. I'm going to have the spend the next four years at minimum constantly battling the alt right and evangelicals who think they have the power now to impose their will. Those people who voted Trump without thinking about or caring about the consequences of that action aren't going to forget it from me or any other LGBT+ group. I am not going to be submissive and cater to them. I don't want to cater to those people and I don't care if that's stupid because it's harder to elect Democrats. 

 

I'm going to fight because this is important to me. These are my rights and I'm not going to bow to anyone who thinks my rights aren't more important than theirs. If these same people had to give up their own rights to secure protection from foreign threats they would never do so. They would never give up their religious freedoms to be safe from Russia's nukes. They would never give up their lifestyles to be safe from ISIS. I'm going to hold them accountable for the shitty thing they did because they threw people into the meatgrinder with no loss to themselves. 

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