METROID DREAD - October 8th!

[Link, the Hero of Dreams]

With Dread leading the fray of another Metroid resurgence, I’m confident that Metroid Prime 4 won’t disappoint. We’re six years or five years removed from FF. They’re learning from that. M:SR was the right direction for things to come.

[Ithrak Utopia]

Metroid Prime 4 is the one thing Metroid related that Metroid Dread didn't elevate my opinion on. I was already personally down on Metroid Prime 4 regardless of Dread since I feel that it'll be continuing a story not the story within the Prime Series. I'm almost completely convinced Prime 4 will retcon what happened in Federation Force. That occurring will bring down my expectations for what right now is the biggest selling point personally for Prime 4 which is Sylux returning. Sylux's potential is much greater at the conclusion of Federation Force than it is at the end of Corruption, which has Sylux simply stalking and following Samus in a seemingly upgraded Delano 7. Most don't care about Sylux at all though. The possibility of Phazon and Dark Samus being back again (after returning again and again) is usually the first mention when speculating on Prime 4's possible story, which for me has been a hype killer on that front especially since the most current story in the Prime games had moved on from both. 

 

On the gameplay side, I'm anticipating a very safe game following Federation Force. Federation Force is my second favorite game in the Metroid Series, but it would be unreasonable for me to expect Prime 4 to continue and build upon any aspect of that gameplay. A safe game can still be a great, enjoyable experience, just for me it's difficult for that to be exciting. At best, I hope it is like Dread and is in the conversation as the pinnacle of the traditional Prime game experience.

 

Dread's story, lore and environment details enabled it to stand out for me even while its gameplay stayed faithful to Metroid: Samus Returns. I don't believe Prime 4 will personally, at least not for the right reasons. I'm at least confident it'll be a great looking game that'll likely make me sweat my Switch's storage space. If I took over 200 photos for Dread, Prime 4 might require me to invest in a new microSD card. 

 

That all said, Prime 4 will be a beloved entry among the general fanbase and open the door for more similar Prime games to come. I think the fanbase is even okay with paying for the next generation system following the Switch if Prime 4 ends up being pushed to that platform solely for that experience. The hype will make it a home run. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Ithrak Utopia

[Ridley Prime]

5 hours ago, Ithrak Utopia said:

Metroid Prime 4 is the one thing Metroid related that Metroid Dread didn't elevate my opinion on. I was already personally down on Metroid Prime 4 regardless of Dread since I feel that it'll be continuing a story not the story within the Prime Series. I'm almost completely convinced Prime 4 will retcon what happened in Federation Force. That occurring will bring down my expectations for what right now is the biggest selling point personally for Prime 4 which is Sylux returning. Sylux's potential is much greater at the conclusion of Federation Force than it is at the end of Corruption, which has Sylux simply stalking and following Samus in a seemingly upgraded Delano 7. Most don't care about Sylux at all though. The possibility of Phazon and Dark Samus being back again (after returning again and again) is usually the first mention when speculating on Prime 4's possible story, which for me has been a hype killer on that front especially since the most current story in the Prime games had moved on from both. 

 

On the gameplay side, I'm anticipating a very safe game following Federation Force. Federation Force is my second favorite game in the Metroid Series, but it would be unreasonable for me to expect Prime 4 to continue and build upon any aspect of that gameplay. A safe game can still be a great, enjoyable experience, just for me it's difficult for that to be exciting. At best, I hope it is like Dread and is in the conversation as the pinnacle of the traditional Prime game experience.

 

Dread's story, lore and environment details enabled it to stand out for me even while its gameplay stayed faithful to Metroid: Samus Returns. I don't believe Prime 4 will personally, at least not for the right reasons. I'm at least confident it'll be a great looking game that'll likely make me sweat my Switch's storage space. If I took over 200 photos for Dread, Prime 4 might require me to invest in a new microSD card. 

 

That all said, Prime 4 will be a beloved entry among the general fanbase and open the door for more similar Prime games to come. I think the fanbase is even okay with paying for the next generation system following the Switch if Prime 4 ends up being pushed to that platform solely for that experience. The hype will make it a home run. 

 

The initial announcement of Metroid Prime 4 was what got me to get a Switch in the first place. After the failure of the Wii U and so little games on it that interested me, nothing short of that kind of reveal would’ve gotten me to give Nintendo another chance, and here we are about 5 years strangely. I would be tilted if Prime 4 got pushed to a next system with that said, even with some of the surprises I got along the way (Smash Ultimate and Ridley finally being playable, Metroid Dread, and what have you).

 

Like you though, I realize I don’t reflect the general Metroid fanbase, especially nowadays. My confidence in Prime 4 has been at an all-time low also as the years have gone by with nothing new still on it, and I’d especially need more convincing if it came down to the game being pushed exclusively on another hardware, not that I think that’ll happen. While one of our favorite franchises, Metroid is not a system seller. It’s a B-seller out of Nintendo’s IP’s, and not having MP4 on the Switch with its current success would be pretty asinine.

 

My biggest fear honestly, is just whether I’ll be as interested and invested by the time the game does finally get completed. I also fear having too much expectations or being too critical on it with how long we’ve known about the game. I mean great as Dread is, I wouldn’t say it 100% lived up to the hype for me as a game sequel I waited almost decades for. Still one of my best ranked games in the series, but I feel like a minority as one who doesn’t endlessly worship it like the most other fans still do, and with Prime 4, I predict I’ll have the same feeling where “It’s a great game, but…”, while mostly everyone else hypes it to hell and back regardless of what we end up getting from it.

[Ithrak Utopia]

23 hours ago, Ridley Prime said:

Like you though, I realize I don’t reflect the general Metroid fanbase, especially nowadays. My confidence in Prime 4 has been at an all-time low also as the years have gone by with nothing new still on it, and I’d especially need more convincing if it came down to the game being pushed exclusively on another hardware, not that I think that’ll happen. While one of our favorite franchises, Metroid is not a system seller. It’s a B-seller out of Nintendo’s IP’s, and not having MP4 on the Switch with its current success would be pretty asinine.

 

My biggest fear honestly, is just whether I’ll be as interested and invested by the time the game does finally get completed. I also fear having too much expectations or being too critical on it with how long we’ve known about the game. I mean great as Dread is, I wouldn’t say it 100% lived up to the hype for me as a game sequel I waited almost decades for. Still one of my best ranked games in the series, but I feel like a minority as one who doesn’t endlessly worship it like the most other fans still do, and with Prime 4, I predict I’ll have the same feeling where “It’s a great game, but…”, while mostly everyone else hypes it to hell and back regardless of what we end up getting from it.

 

I've seen Prime 4 being speculated as a cross generation game like Breath of the Wild too many times, especially since many seem to think the Switch's successor is just around the corner each year. I don't want that to occur and hope that Prime 4 sticks with the Switch to make the most of the current audience size. I don't want to have Prime 4 be released in a similar position as Metroid: Samus Returns either. Preferably, I hope Prime 4 is released to the Nintendo Switch before any official word of a successor breaks, otherwise it would probably be for the best to hold off. With or without the pandemic, I would expect to see Prime 4 at some point this year with the late 2018/early 2019 restart. With that in mind, considering how Dread's release was months from its announcement last year, I would think Prime 4 would follow a similar window to quickly build and keep hype up without really any time for interest to dwindle following a full reveal. 

 

Being too critical is a concern I have with Prime 4 too. I wasn't that invested into the main series story arc to form many expectations for what I would hope to see in Dread. My main expectation for Dread was for it to be much better than Samus Returns, and I felt it delivered that and then some. If I was a fan that got in deep with the post-Fusion speculation on the relationship the Federation would have with Samus Aran after she blew up the B.S.L. and SR388, the fugitive concept, maybe Dread wouldn't have appealed to me as much as it did. Prime 4 is a different animal. In an ideal situation, its main antagonist should be Sylux, a major character from my favorite game, and its story should pick up from the conclusion of what is my second favorite Metroid game. It should come with very high expectations, but, since I know that Federation Force bombed and Hunters is the next most divisive Prime game, I have to be cautious. 

 

Even if I try to convince myself that Federation Force's events will get a retcon, which really leaves the start of Prime 4 and other story aspects up in the air, I don't know if I'll be able to shake the "what if" after completing Prime 4. Without Federation Force, what to expect from Sylux initially defaults back to Metroid Prime Hunters since there are no real interactions present in Corruption's final scene. While that base arsenal can still be made into a formidable threat for Samus, that's a massive step down from what could be if Sylux is paired with the technology developed for Project Golem and the success of the Federation Force. A retcon would sting more too if Sylux is killed in Prime 4, which definitely is possible, and the character doesn't make use of the potential that has been set up. The first reveal for me will be very telling on what Nintendo and Retro Studios are doing with Prime 4. I'm concerned that I won't react with excitement as I did with Dread. I don't just want to see a visually stunning Prime game. 

 

Something that I feel Dread is off on that can be fixed with Prime 4 and future games is how contact damage is handled. Not every enemy, if I happen to bump into them, should cause damage and send Samus bouncing off especially when melee combat is playing a larger role in the gameplay. It's something that I wish both Returns and Dread took from Other M, which has interactions that make sense while close combat has a focus with the Overblast and Lethal Strike maneuvers. I can bump into a Sidehopper without a worry, but not a Dessgeega with its spike covered limbs. If enemies can cause damage via contact, have their design indicate that and even dictate how Samus can perform a melee maneuver to that enemy if she can at all with current upgrades. Likewise if enemies have an appearance that doesn't appear harmful, it shouldn't cause damage to Samus if she touches them. In Dread and Returns, the Melee Counter makes me feel like I should be able to touch any enemy, because logically why would I be harmed from bumping into an enemy when I'm able to swat at them? 

 

Prime 4, assuming the game will have scans, won't entirely have to lean into its enemy designs for sensible instances of contact damage. For example, if Prime 4 has an enemy like Hunters' Petrasyl, considering Samus's armor I wouldn't expect to take contact damage if I happened to bump into that enemy. I do end up being damaged though, so that's where a scan can come in to make sense of an interaction while potentially adding layers of character to the enemy. In this case, the Petrasyl "secretes a corrosive toxin that can burn through all but the toughest materials on contact." After reading that, it's sensible to think harm comes from bumping into an otherwise harmless looking enemy. The Petrasyl too, if implemented into a Metroid game with a Melee Counter, should not be able to be swung at without Samus taking damage from that interaction. If Prime 4 has melee interactions and enemy scans, hopefully they are developed with each other in mind to best sell the world built. 

[Tyranogre]

On 12/31/2021 at 1:45 PM, Ithrak Utopia said:

I'm at least confident it'll be a great looking game that'll likely make me sweat my Switch's storage space. If I took over 200 photos for Dread, Prime 4 might require me to invest in a new microSD card. 

 

You know you can post Switch screenshots to your social media account to save them to your computer, right?

[Ithrak Utopia]

8 minutes ago, Tyranogre said:

You know you can post Switch screenshots to your social media account to save them to your computer, right?

 

I'm not a big fan of Twitter to want to post as frequently as I would need to move that many images unless there's a way to dump a lot into a single post. What I've been doing is moving the screenshots in batches to my phone and then move them to my laptop. It caps at 10 per batch, so moving everything I have for something like Dread is going to take time. 

[Ridley Prime]

3 hours ago, Ithrak Utopia said:

 

I've seen Prime 4 being speculated as a cross generation game like Breath of the Wild too many times, especially since many seem to think the Switch's successor is just around the corner each year. I don't want that to occur and hope that Prime 4 sticks with the Switch to make the most of the current audience size. I don't want to have Prime 4 be released in a similar position as Metroid: Samus Returns either. Preferably, I hope Prime 4 is released to the Nintendo Switch before any official word of a successor breaks, otherwise it would probably be for the best to hold off. With or without the pandemic, I would expect to see Prime 4 at some point this year with the late 2018/early 2019 restart. With that in mind, considering how Dread's release was months from its announcement last year, I would think Prime 4 would follow a similar window to quickly build and keep hype up without really any time for interest to dwindle following a full reveal. 

 

Being too critical is a concern I have with Prime 4 too. I wasn't that invested into the main series story arc to form many expectations for what I would hope to see in Dread. My main expectation for Dread was for it to be much better than Samus Returns, and I felt it delivered that and then some. If I was a fan that got in deep with the post-Fusion speculation on the relationship the Federation would have with Samus Aran after she blew up the B.S.L. and SR388, the fugitive concept, maybe Dread wouldn't have appealed to me as much as it did. Prime 4 is a different animal. In an ideal situation, its main antagonist should be Sylux, a major character from my favorite game, and its story should pick up from the conclusion of what is my second favorite Metroid game. It should come with very high expectations, but, since I know that Federation Force bombed and Hunters is the next most divisive Prime game, I have to be cautious. 

 

Even if I try to convince myself that Federation Force's events will get a retcon, which really leaves the start of Prime 4 and other story aspects up in the air, I don't know if I'll be able to shake the "what if" after completing Prime 4. Without Federation Force, what to expect from Sylux initially defaults back to Metroid Prime Hunters since there are no real interactions present in Corruption's final scene. While that base arsenal can still be made into a formidable threat for Samus, that's a massive step down from what could be if Sylux is paired with the technology developed for Project Golem and the success of the Federation Force. A retcon would sting more too if Sylux is killed in Prime 4, which definitely is possible, and the character doesn't make use of the potential that has been set up. The first reveal for me will be very telling on what Nintendo and Retro Studios are doing with Prime 4. I'm concerned that I won't react with excitement as I did with Dread. I don't just want to see a visually stunning Prime game. 

 

Something that I feel Dread is off on that can be fixed with Prime 4 and future games is how contact damage is handled. Not every enemy, if I happen to bump into them, should cause damage and send Samus bouncing off especially when melee combat is playing a larger role in the gameplay. It's something that I wish both Returns and Dread took from Other M, which has interactions that make sense while close combat has a focus with the Overblast and Lethal Strike maneuvers. I can bump into a Sidehopper without a worry, but not a Dessgeega with its spike covered limbs. If enemies can cause damage via contact, have their design indicate that and even dictate how Samus can perform a melee maneuver to that enemy if she can at all with current upgrades. Likewise if enemies have an appearance that doesn't appear harmful, it shouldn't cause damage to Samus if she touches them. In Dread and Returns, the Melee Counter makes me feel like I should be able to touch any enemy, because logically why would I be harmed from bumping into an enemy when I'm able to swat at them? 

 

Prime 4, assuming the game will have scans, won't entirely have to lean into its enemy designs for sensible instances of contact damage. For example, if Prime 4 has an enemy like Hunters' Petrasyl, considering Samus's armor I wouldn't expect to take contact damage if I happened to bump into that enemy. I do end up being damaged though, so that's where a scan can come in to make sense of an interaction while potentially adding layers of character to the enemy. In this case, the Petrasyl "secretes a corrosive toxin that can burn through all but the toughest materials on contact." After reading that, it's sensible to think harm comes from bumping into an otherwise harmless looking enemy. The Petrasyl too, if implemented into a Metroid game with a Melee Counter, should not be able to be swung at without Samus taking damage from that interaction. If Prime 4 has melee interactions and enemy scans, hopefully they are developed with each other in mind to best sell the world built. 

My main gripes with Dread was how it handled the Chozo. I wanted to see them in the series eventually, but it was mostly just under the influence of the X, which for me was a letdown. Raven Beak was fine though, especially as a final boss and main antagonist, but with the rest of them, I expected something a little better or different. I did like fighting the ones with the spears at first, but would’ve thought there’d be more variety from them, like more of them having an arm cannon with different beam abilities and things like that, but I guess only the most advanced among them had such technology, or they only wanted to design an arm cannon and such things for the Raven Beak fight. Either way, I do feel the X were too disruptive during the 2nd half of Dread, making the game a complete retread of Fusion at that point. Part of me was expecting to encounter them at some point, but I (especially upon replays) felt the X didn’t need to retain as much of a presence as they did after Fusion. The fact only Raven Beak somehow survived the X previously was a head scratcher for me too, and how he kept them contained until Samus visited the Elun sector of ZDR where he unleashed them. I suppose the story felt rushed for me with some of the little things like that.

 

Still fine with Dread as a “conclusion” to the main 2D Metroid arc though, with the ending and all. After wanting a Fusion sequel for so long, it does still feel strange that now that it’s over, I don’t know what more I want from

the series. Dread definitely felt more conclusive than Fusion by the end, so I’m not eager for a Metroid VI even though some fans want that. I’d be fine either way, but I definitely don’t agree with those who want to see more of the X yet again. I’ve seen some speculate how there may still be X after Dread, and I can understand wanting them as a means of filling a certain void with Samus being established as the last Metroid now with the Metroid critters gone, but just the X devouring life everywhere and Samus devouring them would get old after awhile. Imagine just having every enemy and boss be an X-Parasite going forward in the series. It’d be super redundant.

 

 

 

That just leaves us with the Prime series. I’m not too worried about Sylux though just off the fact he is Tanabe’s golden child. Kensuke Tanabe has been heavily involved with the series since Prime Hunters at least if not earlier, and Sylux has been prioritized because he is Tanabe’s favorite out of the other hunters. Kanden, Spire, Noxus, Trace, and Weavel get seemingly nothing now because of the attachment Tanabe has with Sylux particularly, and having used him subtly for this long, I think he has big plans for him in Prime 4. I’m not sure Federation Force will be retconned either. The thing about Tanabe, he doesn’t give a shit want fans think or want, which can be good or bad depending on how you look at it. He defended Federation Force and stayed the course with it despite knowing how much it was hated by fans throughout. Maybe Nintendo might make Tanabe not use Fed Force material for Prime 4 after its failure, but they seem content with letting Tanabe have creative reigns regardless of what happens. He’s not going anywhere, just like how Sakamoto didn’t go anywhere despite having his name dragged through the mud for a decade because of Other M. Nintendo doesn’t get rid of their old guard or have them step aside even with the occasional failed or divisive game. 
 

Frustrated as I was with Tanabe with the timing of a spinoff when Metroid was in the midst of a bitter hiatus, my biggest gripe with him ironically isn’t anything he did with Metroid, but Retro’s Donkey Kong Country titles.  The Kremlings and King K Rool were absent in them because of him, and when asked about K Rool particularly, Tanabe said “Does he really need to come back?”. With his “in with the new, out with the old” mindset, it’s amazing we had the Space Pirates and Ridley in the Prime Trilogy as much as we did, although he may have not been as involved with Metroid until Prime Hunters, but he definitely had more involvement with Prime 3 than he did 1 and 2 it felt like, given that Prime 3 had other bounty hunters like with MPH that he produced previously, as well as MP3 not being confined primarily to one planet like the first two but rather multiple locations like MPH, and Sylux in MP3’s 100% ending was definitely because of Tanabe wanting it.

 

Oh, and Tanabe repeatedly insisted that Dark Samus and Phazon’s storyline was done, so I don’t think they’re coming back despite fans still talking about them. And yeah, contact damage with basic enemies, particularly with the sidescroller games, is an archaic concept that feels more punishing than it should be now, and if they could tone it down there at some point or only have it with certain enemies, that’d be good. 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Ridley Prime

[Ridley Prime]

 
 

Even after Dread’s release, these history videos on the long rumored game I often find as interesting as the game itself was if not more.

 

It goes over the history of MercurySteam with Metroid as well. For those that may not know or remember, their initial pitch for a Metroid was an MPH esque game with different playable hunters for the Wii U which Nintendo turned down (I would’ve rather seen this or Next Level’s cancelled Metroid before it became Luigi’s Mansion: Dark Moon over what we got with Federation Force), and later Sakamoto tried out Castlevania Lords of Shadow: Mirror of Fate for the 3DS which he was so impressed with, he later went to meet Mercury himself. Their first pitch to him was a Fusion remake, but he was more interested in remaking Metroid II, being the only 2D game he was not previously involved with. 

 

Was also interesting seeing how gameplay elements of Mirror of Fate were implemented for not only Samus Returns, but Dread as well; the most obvious being the quicktime events, but I also liked how the camera rotated around Samus and the bosses when doing said quicktimes, which they improved upon with Dread.

 

While I’m not as praising of Dread itself as most of the fandom (i.e. considering it perfection or calling it the best game or sidescroller in the series), I would still like and be open to Mercury doing another Metroid someday, whether it be another sidescroller or their attempt at a 3D game, based on my enjoyment of Lords of Shadow, which I know was divisive amongst old school Castlevania fans, but I really enjoyed it.

 

 

At this point, I might actually put Mercury Steam over Retro Studio when it comes to Metroid. Both have made around as many solid games, both in and outside of Metroid, but Retro has a history of being terribly managed, and I think I could rely on Mercury more for another Metroid if Nintendo permits them. The only reason Retro was brought on board with Prime 4 was because of the development restart and Prime Trilogy’s success, but most of the people at Retro who were involved with the Trilogy are long gone, and they’ve been getting different people hired to work on Prime 4, which I expect to be a very different beast just on that alone.

 

I am still curious as to how the original attempt at Prime 4 was, in how it was so bad that Nintendo wanted Tanabe to restart its development, but I suspect it’s something we’ll never learn the full story of, allowing Tanabe to save face. Either way, he had to go back to Retro (or what was left of it) with his tail in between his legs to get Prime 4 back off the ground. I recall the first team he attempted Prime 4 with before Retro was rumored to be either Namco or a new team entirely, but we’ll never know for sure I guess unless some insider manages to dig up such past history.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Ridley Prime

[DranSeasona]

I can respect that Dread may not match the hopes of those who regard Metroid as one of their more favoured franchises. Over-reliance on the X-parasites is definitely a fair criticism… Although I heard recently that when Mercury Steam first approached Nintendo to remake a Metroid game, Fusion was apparently the one actually on their mind, so I guess it’s not all that surprising in retrospect.

 

Also, while I appreciate the nuance to the Chozo race that the Mawkin tribe being a thing brings, I can also appreciate that it is disappointing to still get so little Chozo screen time… since the only two shown ALIVE die. lol

 

Nonethless, speaking from the perspective of a… casual Metroid fan, I still felt the game was incredibly solid, if nothing else as a stand-alone gaming experience.  

[Ridley Prime]

In hindsight I feel Quiet Robe was overhyped through the trailers, who in the end barely had any screen time. The last good Chozo of his tribe found alive ends up dead after his one scene... He could've been another side companion of Samus throughout, but nah. After why he said he was left alive by the Mawkins too, found it weird and rushed that he just suddenly got killed by a random robot.

 

Samus Returns with most of its fights at least had the excuse of being a remake of a very repetitive game, but with Dread going into completely new territory, I feel they had less excuse with the Chozo encounters being as same-y as they were and expected more variety with them. Thankfully it ended on a high note with Raven Beak, but I stand by the notion they could've done a bit more with the Chozo soldier fights, putting aside my disappointment of them being just X mimics and not the real thing.

[Tyranogre]

 

🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 

[Ridley Prime]

Yeah, saw about that. I can see the Zero Laser having been a possible reference to Dread's Hyper Beam, but generic giant beam either way. Still prefer how the Hyper was in Super Metroid, an endless pew pew of rainbow power.

[Ridley Prime]

 

In the beginning cutscene of Dread when Samus first encounters him, before she was beaten and depowered, she shot him in one of the eyes of his helmet with a super missile which cracked it, and you see that same crack by the end of the game as per attention to detail. If you fought a clone of Raven Beak you wouldn't see the crack.

 

After all the community talk of how Ridley can never ever come back by this point, I do find it funny to see some crackpot or devil's advocate theory for Raven Beak when he's technically just as dead now. Same with the Kraid stuff; how his appearance in Dread was received compared to Ridley's in the prior game by MercurySteam, even though Kraid stuck out like a sore thumb in a game otherwise full of new content and bosses, while Ridley's appearances were usually at least alongside familiar enemies.

 

Anywho, theorizing for the X is one thing, but Raven Beak's never coming back I think. He was both devoured and destroyed along with any remaining trace of his DNA. Ridley at least has the option of his leftover metal claw on SR-388 and his DNA being in the Federation database.

[Tyranogre]

I'd like to think of that cutscene of Samus calmly charging her beam while Kraid roars at her as an internal acknowledgement on her part that her old enemies will always find a way to return from the dead, and there's nothing she can do to prevent it, but that's okay because she's also resolved to keep fighting and killing them until they decide to stay dead.

 

This also retroactively explains her lack of reaction to Ridley's reappearance in Fusion after the mental breakdown he gave her in Other M.

[Ithrak Utopia]

The problem I have is the context in which Raven Beak mentions cloning. It's specifically directed towards Samus, now a Metroid, and Metroids can be cloned via beta-rays. I watched Jonny 64's video in which he laid out the idea, but never got any confirmation of any general cloning mechanism (i.e. the Clone Engine in the Vesper Defense Outpost) on ZDR that I may have missed while playing. I did miss the detail of the Hanubia ships being gone during the final escape when before they were docked as Samus headed toward Itorash. Mawkin-X probably did escape ZDR before it exploded which sets up another X-Parasite scenario in a future game if not the next game. Beyond the implication of beta-rays for cloning Samus, X-Parasites are the only confirmed means of cloning on ZDR which Raven Beak wouldn't entertain as that's his death. There's a bit of a chance that maybe the X-Parasites acquired Raven Beak's DNA from interacting with his torn off wing. I think that would be more possible within the known lore of the game as opposed to just assuming cloning technology in general because of all the other advanced technology on ZDR. If the technology is there, I can imagine Raven Beak deciding to clone himself following the opening of Elun. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Ithrak Utopia

[Ridley Prime]

9 hours ago, Ithrak Utopia said:

The problem I have is the context in which Raven Beak mentions cloning. It's specifically directed towards Samus, now a Metroid, and Metroids can be cloned via beta-rays. I watched Jonny 64's video in which he laid out the idea, but never got any confirmation of any general cloning mechanism (i.e. the Clone Engine in the Vesper Defense Outpost) on ZDR that I may have missed while playing. I did miss the detail of the Hanubia ships being gone during the final escape when before they were docked as Samus headed toward Itorash. Mawkin-X probably did escape ZDR before it exploded which sets up another X-Parasite scenario in a future game if not the next game. Beyond the implication of beta-rays for cloning Samus, X-Parasites are the only confirmed means of cloning on ZDR which Raven Beak wouldn't entertain as that's his death. There's a bit of a chance that maybe the X-Parasites acquired Raven Beak's DNA from interacting with his torn off wing. I think that would be more possible within the known lore of the game as opposed to just assuming cloning technology in general because of all the other advanced technology on ZDR. If the technology is there, I can imagine Raven Beak deciding to clone himself following the opening of Elun. 

I noticed that detail with the ships before and after pretty early on, but they also could’ve just gotten knocked down as the facility began collapsing during the whole escape sequence. I don’t doubt there being more X somewhere either way though.

 

I suppose there’s some DNA of Raven Beak to extract from the torn off wing if the X found it, yeah. I dismiss the notion that Samus fought a RB clone while the real one escaped because of the cracked helmet she caused at the beginning of the game still being there by the end, but him being cloned somewhere in advance by other means I can see as possible, and would be fine with him being back in that context.

 

My only problem with someone being back is if it’s extremely vague in the lore like with Kraid’s return; although the Chozo Archives showed Mawkin restraining him in Cataris, no further explanation was given for his return, but Kraid’s a more obscure character to begin with, while Raven Beak they would no doubt explain him being back somehow like they’ve done with Ridley’s appearances.

[Tyranogre]

Can't the Federation just borrow some of Samus's DNA to mass-produce the Metroid vaccine so the X aren't a threat anymore?

[Ithrak Utopia]

1 hour ago, Ridley Prime said:

I suppose there’s some DNA of Raven Beak to extract from the torn off wing if the X found it, yeah. I dismiss the notion that Samus fought a RB clone while the real one escaped because of the cracked helmet she caused at the beginning of the game still being there by the end, but him being cloned somewhere in advance by other means I can see as possible, and would be fine with him being back in that context.

 

My only problem with someone being back is if it’s extremely vague in the lore like with Kraid’s return; although the Chozo Archives showed Mawkin restraining him in Cataris, no further explanation was given for his return, but Kraid’s a more obscure character to begin with, while Raven Beak they would no doubt explain him being back somehow like they’ve done with Ridley’s appearances.

 

I don't think the cracked helmet matters all that much in arguing against the idea of Samus fighting a Raven Beak clone. ZDR has a Varia and Gravity Suit for Samus, why would I think Raven Beak would be less outfitted that he wouldn't be able to put on undamaged armor? There are plenty of Mawkin weaponry and equipment displays in their main settlements. My issue, assuming that technology is there for Raven Beak to clone himself, is that having a clone fight in his place means that Raven Beak may not have believed he could survive in a battle against Samus. There is one instance I feel of Raven Beak deciding to save himself against a threat, and that's when he basically sealed away the rest of the Mawkin tribe to contain the X-Parasites to Elun. I do not believe he shares the same mentality towards his own daughter, and do believe that his character feels that he can kill Samus if it became necessary. The only thing that makes me doubt that was the real Raven Beak is the lack of cold-based attacks because he knows what Samus is becoming and knows the strategies the X-Parasites took to try and kill Samus before she reached Itorash. Considering the deception throughout the game of pretending to be the Adam AI, I wouldn't put it pass Raven Beak to have a clone of himself push Samus to achieve a full mutation into a Metroid and then the real one hunts her down much better equipped. It comes down to whether or not I think Raven Beak is intelligent enough to think beyond his ego, as I do think that ego is a potential fatal character flaw. 

 

Personally, I would much rather have this theory be true as opposed to dealing with another planet having an X-Parasite situation. I think Dread and Fusion are fine, and @Tyranogre has a point. Unless X-Parasites escaped and mimicked a civilization with the means to threaten the Federation, Federation space should be well protected from X-Parasite infestations with Samus's DNA combination to make a more suitable vaccine for the masses. I don't believe she would refuse the opportunity to save that many lives, but, as a nod to how shady some of the Federation's operations have been, have her threaten them if ever her blood sample becomes misused. I think that both covers the bases with regard to Samus's character and forces there to be more creativity if the X-Parasites are used in a plot again and leaves the door open for a potential Samus vs. Federation corruption arc. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Ithrak Utopia

[Ridley Prime]

51 minutes ago, Ithrak Utopia said:

 

I don't think the cracked helmet matters all that much in arguing against the idea of Samus fighting a Raven Beak clone. ZDR has a Varia and Gravity Suit for Samus, why would I think Raven Beak would be less outfitted that he wouldn't be able to put on undamaged armor? There are plenty of Mawkin weaponry and equipment displays in their main settlements. My issue, assuming that technology is there for Raven Beak to clone himself, is that having a clone fight in his place means that Raven Beak may not have believed he could survive in a battle against Samus. There is one instance I feel of Raven Beak deciding to save himself against a threat, and that's when he basically sealed away the rest of the Mawkin tribe to contain the X-Parasites to Elun. I do not believe he shares the same mentality towards his own daughter, and do believe that his character feels that he can kill Samus if it became necessary. The only thing that makes me doubt that was the real Raven Beak is the lack of cold-based attacks because he knows what Samus is becoming and knows the strategies the X-Parasites took to try and kill Samus before she reached Itorash. Considering the deception throughout the game of pretending to be the Adam AI, I wouldn't put it pass Raven Beak to have a clone of himself push Samus to achieve a full mutation into a Metroid and then the real one hunts her down much better equipped. It comes down to whether or not I think Raven Beak is intelligent enough to think beyond his ego, as I do think that ego is a potential fatal character flaw. 

 

Personally, I would much rather have this theory be true as opposed to dealing with another planet having an X-Parasite situation. I think Dread and Fusion are fine, and @Tyranogre has a point. Unless X-Parasites escaped and mimicked a civilization with the means to threaten the Federation, Federation space should be well protected from X-Parasite infestations with Samus's DNA combination to make a more suitable vaccine for the masses. I don't believe she would refuse the opportunity to save that many lives, but, as a nod to how shady some of the Federation's operations have been, have her threaten them if ever her blood sample becomes misused. I think that both covers the bases with regard to Samus's character and forces there to be more creativity if the X-Parasites are used in a plot again and leaves the door open for a potential Samus vs. Federation corruption arc. 

 

Thing is, the very same crack on Raven Beak's helmet was later used by Samus to gain the upper hand when she punched through the crack in the eye, destroying the helmet in the process and began draining his life energy as she turned into the green form we now know and love. Without that literal chink in his armor that Samus caused around the start of the game, I'm not sure she would've been able to make that comeback against him after he initially overpowered and grabbed her by the neck a 2nd time. Maybe she would've somehow destroyed the head armor anyway in order to drain him some going by the "Samus is overpowered once she has her full Metroid DNA potential unlocked" angle, but I liked the purpose that the helmet crack ended up serving, as well as the design detail of it, giving RB an even edgier look than he had at first.

 

Still, I see what you're saying, and yeah, the crack doesn't matter too much in the context of whether she fights a clone. And excellent point about the lack of Ice Beam on Raven Beak's part. It might be one of those "that would've made too much sense" kind of things, or he was just confident enough in his own power that he felt resorting to the Hyper Beam against her would be enough without having to ice her. Who knows.

 

Back to the X though, their presence in Dread was already pushing it for me as previously expressed, and at some point after they would overstay their welcome. It's not like one character with a certain number of appearances; the X are a species that you fight for the entirety of a game, or half a game in Dread's case, and honestly, I'm already growing tired of the X now. How invested I would be in a Metroid VI is whether they move on from the X entirely. A Samus vs corrupt Federation arc I would still welcome though, but not expecting it anymore like I was before Metroid V.

[Ithrak Utopia]

Let's just say that X-Parasites mimicking the Mawkin did take off in the ships stationed at Hanubia, what's suppose to be next that won't feel completely repetitive? The only route I would be interested in is if Raven Beak's actions to allow the X-Parasites to be free on ZDR leads to the central collapse of the Galactic Federation, where Samus basically is put on the world that is featured in many of Other M's cutscenes to attempt to save as many lives as possible while also trying to end any further X-Parasite infestations coming to other worlds. It would have to end there though, as I do think having the X-Parasites around again after Metroid Dread creates another Phazon situation where the threat needs to have a written end in spite of the possibilities of such a threat to still be around. If they make it back, it'll feel like there will always be a possibility for the X-Parasites to continue to be a threat in some form, like with Phazon via Phaaze and the possible existence of multiple Phaaze. It wouldn't end unless it forcibly comes to an end. Phazon got written out as a potential threat with Corruption's ending, which was doubled down on by Federation Force. I see the same occurring for X-Parasites if their story isn't over with Metroid Dread, and I do hope that it is over. Like I said, if the missing Hanubia ships are a hint at what's coming next, I hope it's more Raven Beak, clone or real, rather than the only alternative in the X-Parasites returning. Raven Beak doesn't have to return exactly as he is in Dread. Give him a new armor suit and new weaponry, maybe wield (and dual wield) enhanced elemental spears as a nod to the choice weapon type of the Mawkin Tribe (and their X replications).