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Blue Origami Cult - N4A Chat Thread - July 2020


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The "hate the current Zelda, worship the previous" is very true among a lot of people. TP got a shit ton of hate, now I see it grace the top of some people's favourite Zelda games. SS was hated for a looooong time, now people want it remade because they want to play it again. WW didn't have enough dungeons, now it's the best for exploration, etc. People hate the "Zelda formula" but when a game strays from it, they hate that one and love the last formulaic one; then another formulaic one comes out and people praise the last one for "at least being different"

 

The only real hate I ever see for BotW nowadays is the lack of proper dungeons and weapon durability. It's still widely revered among fans as the shake up the series needed.

 

WHERE'S MY BOTW2 INFO NINTENDO! SHOW YOURSELVES!!!!!!!

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I don't think that phenomenon is really unique to Zelda to begin with. When a game comes out, it's on everybody's radar, so you're gonna get a large amount of discussion about it. When the initial hype dies down somewhat, that's when many players reflect on the game and become more critical of its flaws. After enough time has passed that the next game is going through the cycle, it's mostly only going to be the fans of the previous iteration who are talking about it. And if they're critical of the newest game, it's natural that they would compare it to the previous one, whereas those who like the new game have less reason to do so.


I have an extremely poor opinion of Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, but I rarely have a reason to bring that up. They're mostly only relevant to the people who liked them, and once enough time has passed, those games will become relevant amongst those fans again. Nothing about the overall consensus changes. It's just that critics have no reason to talk about a 10 year old game, while fans will actively want to do so. The only exception is something like Ocarina of Time, a game so influential that it becomes a fundamental reference point, staying under the critical eye eternally.

Edited by Pichi
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Yeah, @EH_STEVE and @Pichi I agree with you both. That all harkens back to the subjective element of media, I think.
 

Personally, despite one’s personal opinion of certain games, I feel the line in the sand is when people start calling a game a “bad Zelda experience” or whatever. So, calling a game “unworthy of the mantle of Zelda”, basically. A game can easily have flaws, but unless it’s absolute garbage (and of course such games do exist), I really don’t think it’s fair. Zelda is whatever the devs want it to be, and then whatever fans resonate with too. 

 

Like, I hate Triforce Heroes. I thought it was by far the most cynical and uninspired game in the whole official repertoire. But it’s still a “Zelda experience”, regardless of if I like it personally. It is probably someone somewhere’s favourite one and to them probably contains everything that Zelda should be. On the other hand, I love Zelda 2. Frustrates me a lot, but it still has all the elements that Zelda means to me in it. Many people seem to disagree.


Like, I am perfectly fine if people want to explain problems with BotW, and I’ll probably even agree with some (maybe most) of it. But saying in addition to that what basically amounts to calling it “unworthy“? Come on...

 

Anyway sorry for the rant. :P Lol

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How about a kiss for luck?  

 

------------------------------------------------------------  

 

On to other matters, I finally beat Dragon Quest VIII for the 3DS, which I think is my favorite of the series, despite a few things the other games I've played have done better with. (Though I haven't played some for good reasons.) That might change with XIS. 

Edited by Link, the Hero of Dreams
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1 hour ago, Link, the Hero of Dreams said:

How about a kiss for luck?  

 

------------------------------------------------------------ 

On to other matters, I finally beat Dragon Quest VIII for the 3DS, which I think is my favorite of the series, despite a few things the other games I've played have done better with. (Though I haven't played some for good reasons.) That might change with XIS. 

Did you do the post-game content? I strongly recommend doing so, it answers some questions about the main story.

 

I'm really in the mood for some SMT. I think I'll play 4A. This evening I skimmed through a video of all cutscenes of 4. It's been over 5 years since I finished 4 on the law route. I don't remember it being an incredible experience, I was pretty annoyed with everything half way through. I'm curious if SMT might be more my cup of tea now.

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Recently been tackling some  of the demos i downloaded

 

Can't say i cared for most of them, though


 

Spoiler

Cris Tales got me hooked - definitely will be buying that one sometime when it releases - the artstyle is extremely pretty. and has some pretty good music. interesting battle system and voice acting too - definitely worth playing the Demo if one hasn't already, imo

 

Shivering Hearts is another one that caught my interest... think i'll get that one at some point

 

Dragon Audit is.... an interesting one - haven't played through the entire Demo yet, though... it's one of those games that doesn't take itself seriously, and a bit out there, so....????

 

Calico, well..... im not sure what to think of that one just yet, since i haven't played it all the way through, but it's something, i guess... it's a bit... odd? Hard to describe, honnestly

 

Gori: Cuddly Carnage is an interesting one... going to have to revisit that one, got stuck on the boss, but it's caught my interest

 

Summer in Mara caught my interest - from the demo, seems like a game that pretty laid back and chill, which is pretty nice - think i'll be buying that at some point

 

Haven't played it all the way through yet, but i've been enjoying Monster Girl

island: Prologue so far, will end up buying that at some point whenever the full game comes out, definitely has my interest

 

And then there's Paws and Soul: First Step - it's... okay, i guess - not really sure about it - other than the game being pretty, that's all i've liked about it so far

 

Don't know if i'll continue playing it or not....

 

Also recently been playing Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel. and been enjoying it so far

 

Granted i was up all night a couple nights ago playing it with a few different characters... eh, i couldn't sleep anyway no matter how much i tried to

 

Not the exactly easiest game to play single player, though, but i've been managing so far - and been enjoying it so far, at least

 

Granted, i have no idea if this comes before or after the first one, so no idea if im playing it out of order

 

Unfortunately, Borderlands 1 isn't on Epic Games Store, so guess i'll be getting that on Steam then - as well as Borderlands 3

 

Also might end up buying the whole collection on Switch at some point for a portable version - though i don't know if Borderlands 3 is on Switch or not, though.....

Edited by Shadow118
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11 hours ago, Link, the Hero of Dreams said:

On to other matters, I finally beat Dragon Quest VIII for the 3DS, which I think is my favorite of the series, despite a few things the other games I've played have done better with. (Though I haven't played some for good reasons.) That might change with XIS. 

Yeah as Joey said, don’t miss the post-game for DQ8 if you haven’t done it. It’s challenging but worth it.

 

DQ11 was a great game, too, overall. Happily sunk loads of time into that one. :) Right now I am playing DQ3, myself.

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22 hours ago, DranSeasona said:

Like, I hate Triforce Heroes. I thought it was by far the most cynical and uninspired game in the whole official repertoire.

I'll start this post by saying I enjoy light gun games, but the Zelda title that stands out to me as a cynical cash-grab is Link's Crossbow Training.  

 

Take away the Zelda coat of paint, and you've got a short and simplistic shooting gallery game, something otherwise unmemorable. It certainly benefits from the Zelda branding, but it still felt more like a proof-of-concept, a sort of polished tech demo showing what the Wii Zapper could do. 

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If I had to rank the games I've played from my least to most favorite: 

 

IV. Dragon Quest V 

 

If I remember correctly, I hate the game mostly because of the imbalance in the gameplay itself thanks to the innovative monster teaming feature Poke'mon would later make a phenomena. And, I have really bad memories with this game because of that capturing system. Still it has by far the best plot of the series because it spans decades. Seeing how the main character grows up is engaging. If other people think it's better than other games in the series, fine with them. It was just my experience with the capturing system. 

 

III. Dragon Quest III 

  

While it has a class system with revolving party members, it introduced the arena, and it perhaps has the best ending because of its ties to the first two games, I think the other games excelled in other aspects. Still, it's worth playing to get a feel where the series truly started, as the first two games are really average compared to this game. 

 

II. Dragon Quest IV 

 

If nothing else, I think this game has the best music because of overworld character themes and the boss themes. When one thinks what the strongest point of this game is, it's character. Because of the chapter system, each ensemble character is just as important as the hero. It also makes the bosses and the final boss more impactful, because they are responsible for the party's woes. (This game did it first and BETTER than Octopath Traveler IMO.) I also think this is the most balanced game in the series because of how each character complements each other. If I remember, my party mostly consisted of the Hero, Kiryu, Maya, and Torneko. 

 

I. Dragon Quest VIII 

  

It's fun to play, there's a lot to do in this game, it has the best gameplay, it's the most visually striking, and it has my favorite team line-up (though IV comes REALLY close). And while it's not the strongest in the other categories, that doesn't mean this game isn't worth playing. The main party members, an oddball group of misfits, have the same objective. I have yet to play the bonus stuff as of now, but I can tell the content is bigger compared to the other games I've played. Maybe these things are the reason that this is the most well received of the series. (Or is it XIS? I'm going to eventually play it, but not right now.) Maybe that's why the series became popular after years of underground cult status due to the mainstream status of the Final Fantasy series. Maybe Enix joining Square helped the series in the long run. While I myself never played the original, VIII is still one of the best RPGs I've played. 

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1 hour ago, blcdude1 said:

I'll start this post by saying I enjoy light gun games, but the Zelda title that stands out to me as a cynical cash-grab is Link's Crossbow Training.  

 

Take away the Zelda coat of paint, and you've got a short and simplistic shooting gallery game, something otherwise unmemorable. It certainly benefits from the Zelda branding, but it still felt more like a proof-of-concept, a sort of polished tech demo showing what the Wii Zapper could do. 

Lol See I don’t even count that one. I only treat it as that tech demo. 


In theory the Zapper should have had multiple uses other than just the one “game”, so I am a little more willing to give that one a pass, personally. One could argue it was overpriced for what it was, maybe (honestly don’t remember what the price initially was). In terms of actual games, my vote still goes to Triforce Heroes.

 

@Link, the Hero of DreamsInteresting you put DQ4 so high, I was personally kind of meh on that one. I would rank DQ11 higher than DQ8 even, personally. But 8 at number one is pretty well par for the course I think. :P 
 

But genuine question, did DQ actually lose its appeal for Final Fantasy or was that really just North America? I always thought Japan’s favourite was Dragon Quest.

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In Japan I think it's a different story, but North America lost some interest, and I think it may be because we never got V and VI for the SNES. And, VIII being on the PS after the arrival of the PS2 didn't help the series much. Dragon Quest VIII is where things picked up. But, if you really think about it, I don't think people played much of the series after Final Fantasy VI, VII, ..., IX, X, and so on came out. Sure, it might be different now that Final Fantasy is going in a weird direction nowadays, but in the 90s and 2000s, 

 

Again, I haven't played 11 at all, but I can't wait for it to surprise me. I've been building up on which games to thoroughly play because of it... And, the Luminary's appearance in Smash Ultimate.  

Edited by Link, the Hero of Dreams
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1 hour ago, DranSeasona said:

But genuine question, did DQ actually lose its appeal for Final Fantasy or was that really just North America? I always thought Japan’s favourite was Dragon Quest.

Yeah, Dragon Quest is a cultural phenomenon in Japan. There's basically nothing as big in gaming in Japan as a Dragon Quest release.
For some reason they just stopped giving us DQ games after the NES. I guess they never really caught on at the time, but it's a huge shame.

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For North America, Dragon Quest (aka Dragon Warrior) was just viewed as too basic in gameplay and graphics, especially compared to Final Fantasy once that came out (which is arguably still true today—DQ games are relatively steady in terms of mechanics and look while FF often tries to do something flashy and unique, to mixed results). Nintendo literally gave away copies of the game through Nintendo Power since they had so overestimated demand. It wasn't until DQVIII that the series gained more mainstream popularity in America, and even then it's still probably behind FF. But yeah DQ has always been a phenomenon in Japan.

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