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Blue Origami Cult - N4A Chat Thread - July 2020


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All hail King Slime! *bows* 

 

Anyways, I look at an Ocarina of Time video, and now there's discussions of Breath of the Wild not being a good Zelda game. Okay, wasn't this once the reverse for Ocarina of Time five years ago? And now that I think about it, why hasn't been Mario brought up, since it too has delved into different ideas of platforming? Not that I think Breath of the Wild is perfect, but it not being a good Zelda game is kind of interesting to think about. Wasn't its objective to pay homage to the first game in the series? Maybe people critique it for how different it is compared to the past few games before it came. Zelda doesn't have to be only one specific thing. 

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Zelda was one of the only Nintendo series to spend a very long time aping itself and not really doing anything significantly new for its flagship titles.
We're talking two decades between OoT's release and Breath of the Wild.
So the fact that there are a bunch of people complaining on an OoT video that BotW isn't another OoT rehash doesn't even remotely surprise me lol

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It's all in the comments section, so bear with me: 

 

-I really think it's the lack of well crafted dungeons and shift in focus to survival gameplay that makes BotW a weak Zelda game even if it excels in the open world genre for a lot of people. Also weapon durability is dreadful and the shrines are padded out with so many time-wasting animations. But hopefully the sequel addresses BotW's issues instead of believing it to be perfect like the past 3 years of discourse seem to suggest. 

 

-The “bad Zelda game” argument is because there are different interpretations of what people define a Zelda game. For some people, it is the sense of discovery and exploration, which BOTW accomplishes really well. But for others(like me), it is the “metroidvania” aspect of Zelda games that stand out: getting new items, that help solve the puzzles in the dungeon AND open up new places in the overworld, with new secrets and everything. BOTW doesnt have this, you can explore the whole world from the get go and you also have all the items from the get go. That is why, to me, it is not a good Zelda game, but for others it is, and that is completely fine. 

 

-I'm playing through BOTW for the first time right now, and I think that the ability to go anywhere from the beginning of the game is both a positive and a negative. On one hand, it's great that the entire game is yours to explore with no limitations. On the other hand, the fact that you don't really gain new abilities that allow you to access new areas or items to ponder how to properly utilize means there isn't enough surprise to keep it interesting. So you have this massive, incredible map, and exploring it is rewarding, but those rewards basically boil down to shrines, and Korok seeds. Over and over. 

 

-yeah I think the "getting new items" thing is a huge crux of the problem. the greatest feeling in a zelda game imo is overcoming a challenge, getting a new toy, then seeing the world in a new light as you carefully look around for places to hookshot to, taking the world in with fresh eyes, seeing places you passed a 100 times as new and containing new interesting secrets. 

 

-exactly, that is my problem with it. For some people, that cycle of discovery is enough to get them going. For me it is not enough: i want tangible upgrades and progression. Getting new weapons and armor is fine and all but after some time you realize they are just a better version of another weapon you already had. It is a design choice that works for a LOT of people, but for me it just fell flat 

 

-Actually, what I like about Breath of the Wild is that it's different and bothered to come up with some new powers for Link. It started to feel like I was going through the motions in previous Zelda games: like, I would see a chest out of my reach and think, "hmm, I'm going to need the hookshot to get that," and later on I would get a hookshot and get that chest. There was little new to the puzzles, and I felt like I'd already solved them before I began, since I'd so often already done a similar puzzle in an older game in the series.   

 

^Whoopsie, that one's a positive.

 

-Part of the reason BotW is considered not a "good zelda game" is the lack of item based character progression. You get all your important abilities at the start and never get any new ones. This isn't a bad thing but not very Zelda.   

 
-reason's I do not rate breath of the wild. 
When I get a new weapon, it does not feel special or useful. firstly because I know it will break  very quickly so I don't feel like I can really use it much, second because if I feel like i can use it, that means it's not special or unique because I am confident that I can get another one when it breaks. 
When I find something in the world it is merely currency, it is not special. it's either a korok poop, or it's a gem that i use to buy a health or stamina increase. it's never a useful new item or a unique weapon upgrade.
There are no caves, the world is one layer. it is flat. It is even more flat when you consider there is no cliff you cannot simply scale. real life doesn't work this way, not all cliffs are scalable and most people cannot scale any cliff.  the boundaries are thus removed and the world is flat and featureless from a gameplay perspective. 
The story has no structure. there is no feasible beginning middle and end aside from the obligatory intro and outro. you can play game elements in any order and thus they have no bearing on each other. there are no developments in story through the main game experience. 
Horse is not important. They are everywhere, they are not unique. 
characters are mostly cookie cutter. ranches are cookie cutter.  hardly any unique elements. 
If it's dark and raining and there is no shelter, you are screwed. sometimes even if there is shelter, you are screwed. I sat and tried to make a fire under a shall of a house, clearly in shelter and i wasted all of my sticks and no fire.  This is an actual thing that happened to me ( I feel the need to point this out because someone once accused me of lying about this) 

 

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...I could go on, but I'll just put the video where the comments came from here. It's not the creator himself just some commenters. 

 

 

Edited by Link, the Hero of Dreams
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3 hours ago, Tyranogre said:

The best Zelda game is whichever one came before the most recent one.

 

Since the most recent one was Cadence of Hyrule, that means that the current best Zelda game is Hyrule Warriors: Definitive Edition.

This means there was a brief period of time when Freshly-Picked Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland was the best game in the series. 

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9 hours ago, Link, the Hero of Dreams said:

Actually, what I like about Breath of the Wild is that it's different and bothered to come up with some new powers for Link. It started to feel like I was going through the motions in previous Zelda games: like, I would see a chest out of my reach and think, "hmm, I'm going to need the hookshot to get that," and later on I would get a hookshot and get that chest. There was little new to the puzzles, and I felt like I'd already solved them before I began, since I'd so often already done a similar puzzle in an older game in the series.  

this sums it up much more nicely than i would have. 3D zelda titles have straight up been a flowchart for ages.
you try killing every enemy, you try pushing something, you try looking for an eyeball to shoot, or you wait until you have the dungeon item.
when you unlock a few more items you add them to the flowchart, but most items don't get a lot of use after their respective area.
so while a little more variety in moment-to-moment discovery would be nice, botw was still a shake-up the mainline series desperately needed

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@Link, the Hero of DreamsOh so it’s not even the video just random commenters? It can be hard to tell if some commenters are serious or just trolls, but most of what you put there boils down to two things: what Zelda means to different people vs. complaints with gameplay mechanics, the latter of which is irrelevant to what makes or breaks a “Zelda” experience, really.


If one’s idea of what Zelda is boils down to mere mechanics, that’s pretty generic. I mean, eventually most games share mechanics to some degree. To gatekeep based on that is quite silly. Also, not all Zelda games are easy or completely free from glitch, so it doesn’t make sense to claim it’s not a true Zelda game based on that, either.

 

But the first thing I mentioned, what Zelda means to different people, is as the second commenter said quite subjective. I would argue however that Zelda is about more than just the metroidvania mechanics, so saying it needs this in order to be a true Zelda experience is not giving it enough credit. As he even admitted, the mystery and fun of adventure is the main draw for many people. In fact when you go back to the actual inspiration for the first game, Miyamoto claimed it was having fun exploring caves and forests and the like that inspired him to make Zelda.
 

So in terms of an overarching “feeling” of exploration which was the initial point of Zelda, I am fairly confident that the vast majority of people would agree that BotW is not really lacking there. 

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