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Routine Political Dystopia 2021 Edition


April

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You do realize the anti-police brutality protests are not correlated with covid cases, right? There's a world of difference between an outdoor protest where people are masking/social distancing compared to an indoor rally where people do none of that. Equating anti-police brutality protests with Trump rallies is a false equivalence. By-the-by, Trump's Tulsa rally is linked with covid spike.

 

Id est, if you earnestly believe Trump is doing these rallies now to point out the inconsistencies, you're spouting GOP propaganda. Educate yourself rather than regurgitating harmful kool-aid.

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And at least the protesters have the decency to follow the guidelines. 

 

Unlike some people who don't think this whole thing is a threat, and Trump is blaming someone else for HIS mistakes. He's blaming Biden for all of this, even though HE'S the one in charge. He doesn't take responsibility. But, yeah, why acknowledge problems, when you can shift blame others?! 

 

I can't. Oh, and a millionaire who's had a concerning amount of possible tax fraud and bankruptcy that he knows will be his grave caring for the working class?! *pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft* 

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3 hours ago, Zora said:

You do realize the anti-police brutality protests are not correlated with covid cases, right? There's a world of difference between an outdoor protest where people are masking/social distancing compared to an indoor rally where people do none of that. Equating anti-police brutality protests with Trump rallies is a false equivalence. By-the-by, Trump's Tulsa rally is linked with covid spike.

 

Id est, if you earnestly believe Trump is doing these rallies now to point out the inconsistencies, you're spouting GOP propaganda. Educate yourself rather than regurgitating harmful kool-aid.

The Virginia rally yesterday in Newport News was mostly an outside rally as have been the majority of the rallies I've seen over this last week. There were also plenty of people wearing masks during the event, and neither maintained social distancing (looking at the second image in their slide). The major differences between the two were size and movement, with the rally being of significantly larger size with very little movement occurring.

 

Addressing your article from Vox from late June, which has nothing to do with what's being talked about regarding Virginia over the past week, it's not definitive related to what you're claiming. I don't even get to the author's name before a "may" is brought up. Later in that article, "Here are six reasons the protests may not have led to a big spike in coronavirus cases" and above that, "They [public health experts] mentioned some important caveats. The coronavirus's incubation period can take up to two weeks, and people coming back from protests who get sick can take a while to infect their communities, so it's possible an increase in cases could be linked to the protests down the line. Chance also plays a major role in where outbreaks worsen, and it's possible protesters simply got lucky in some sense." What is definitive with the article is that there was some uncertainty with Covid-19 spread related to large gatherings. 

 

I'm not subscribed to the Washington Post, but I would like to address that Tulsa rally. I do agree that an indoor event like that would present a much higher risk than an outdoor event, and is that much more of a bad idea. If I were to go to CNN regarding the spike in Tulsa you're addressing from early July, there is no concrete link between that rally and that spike. Dr. Bruce Dart, Executive Director of the Tulsa Health Department, was asked if the surge was due to the rally on June 20th, 2020, and said that there were several large events a little over two weeks ago, "I guess we just connect the dots." Like regarding protests, this is more guesswork trying to put President Trump's campaign in a negative light. I do believe CNN would have reported a definitive link between the Tulsa rally and that July spike if it actually did exist. They do hate him. 

 

If I wasn't a Trump supporter, I would be educated right? I would be more informed if I was given factual information to look at rather than a bunch of maybes. It is factual that Virginia has gathering limits capped at 250, "Social gatherings should be limited to 50% occupancy of the event space, if applicable, or 250 participants, whichever is less" (4th bullet down under guidelines for social gatherings). Both a rally from President Trump in Newport News and a protest in the state's capital city have the potential to exceed that number, but only one is heavily pushed against. It is factual that the limit doesn't have any exceptions with it, so the policy is being addressed inconsistently here and yes I do believe a part of a Trump rally message is to point that out. 

Edited by IU
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18 hours ago, IU said:

The current narrative going on in the country and the reaction of cities to that narrative. Police getting shot, their vehicles and department buildings being set on fire...The whole "defund the police" non-sense, that's all getting in the way of full performance. I'm sure some now have concern about defending themselves if they are fired upon. 
 

 

I don't feel any particular way about it, because I know there's talk on both sides of contesting the election. I still don't understand how it would be unsafe for anyone, unless they're high risk, to vote in person nearly 8 months out from the initial Covid-19 shutdowns and both the individual and the polling place knowing what to do to significantly reduce transmission. 

Well, defund the police can mean a few different things but the most common thing I've seen is just redirecting some funding for the police into other areas that might have a better effect overall, as well as demilitarizing them which can help rebuild trust back in the community. Which I think also helps the cops because it makes their job safer too. It's hard to not feel resentment towards a group that's armed to the teeth with all kinds of shiny toys and tanks and stuff while your kid's school might be falling apart or your city might not have a functional public transport system and in the media are countless examples of them brutalizing people and facing no consequences for it. As well as all the statistics on systemic racism.

 

But anyway, defund the police can just be taking funds and directing them towards other agencies that might be trained better or more capable for the task at hand rather than police being assigned to do almost everything. Maybe also redirecting those funds into the community to help lower poverty which lowers crime at the source rather than attacking the symptom.

 

I don't know if you can equate the two, I've never seen Biden say anything as outrageous as "The only way we’re going to lose this election is if the election is rigged. Remember that. That’s the only way we’re going to lose this election." He's prepping his supporters for violence if he loses.

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1 hour ago, IU said:

If I wasn't a Trump supporter, I would be educated right? I would be more informed if I was given factual information to look at rather than a bunch of maybes. It is factual that Virginia has gathering limits capped at 250, "Social gatherings should be limited to 50% occupancy of the event space, if applicable, or 250 participants, whichever is less" (4th bullet down under guidelines for social gatherings). Both a rally from President Trump in Newport News and a protest in the state's capital city have the potential to exceed that number, but only one is heavily pushed against. It is factual that the limit doesn't have any exceptions with it, so the policy is being addressed inconsistently here and yes I do believe a part of a Trump rally message is to point that out. 

I don't know if you can really equate the two. One is a protest towards a completely unjust situation that can't take any other form than in-person and the other is a rally that can just as easily be a recording that's broadcast online or on TV. I'm not against Trump having rallies, I just think they should adapt to the times. When I watch another event or something the show can go on mostly as normal, there's just no crowd there.

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protests don't cause transmission at all is definitely wishful thinking, but protesting is also not something that anybody wants to have to fucking do in the first place. i personally feel like defunding the police is kind of distracting to the main message of "stop killing unarmed black people" and "stop letting police get away with murder when they kill people needlessly," the latter being the exact issue that's causing the protests to continue right now. regarding "defunding," though: some criminals just gravitate towards crime, but lots of it is opportunism and desperation. fighting the cycle of poverty is a much better way to reduce crime, since jailing more people only promotes recidivism due to the shitty nature of our sentencing and prisons. if you redirect funds that pay for equipment which only promotes escalation of violence, like @devilsKnife said, you can help fight that cycle locally. there's also a poor connection between increased policing and actual crime reduction. new york even experienced lower crime rates when cops pulled back on some occasions, such as this one a few years ago.

 

people act like insisting on no needless public gatherings is somehow inconsistent with supporting protests, but nobody wants to be protesting either. it just feels like the only way left to demand attention to the issues since, without fail, it always gets brushed aside the moment anger towards police shootings abates.
and gatherings aren't any better of an idea than they have been for the past several months. nothing has substantially changed here since june.

Daily confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million, rolling 7-day average - Our  World in Data

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On 9/24/2020 at 11:16 PM, IU said:

The crowd and its energy certainly helps to make each rally engaging that I've seen recently. It seems that his live attendance is in the thousands, and his virtual audience is much higher and I'm just viewing these rallies from the perspective of Right Side Broadcasting Network. Since watching, his virtual audience has grown there by around 15,000, from 76,000 to nearly 91,000. I like being in a place where there is some common interest, and the Trump rallies I've seen recently have given much more than that. I don't 100% agree

with everything the President does or with his supporters' decisions, but I do know I agree with them vastly more than I agree with the Democratic agenda.

 

I almost get the sense that you are far more influenced by the spectacle rather than the substance but I'll expound on that towards the end.  I want to take time to go through some of the things relevant to what I was most looking for in your response first.

 

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You and I have a very different take on the ABC Town Hall. He could have declined to have a town hall with ABC and arrange one with Fox News. Biden decided to not have his town hall with ABC and instead had it arranged with CNN, an even more advantageous environment for him in the format. President Trump is willing to go into a situation where there will be a lot of pressure put upon him, and I felt for the most part that he responded well given the time provided (a program running from 9-10:30pm with commercial breaks). If I had an issue with any response, it was his failure to mention Opportunity Zones in response to Pastor Carl Day, something that did come up a few times during the

RNC. 

 

If I'm being honest this is not the greatest take you could have had IU.  You essentially spearheaded your response with the idea that Trump somehow deserves kudos for agreeing to place himself into a high pressure situation when he could have easily just went to FOX News.  A leader in most positions, let alone that of a country, should expect to be in such a position but moreso than that there is an expectation to manage themselves within those moments of high pressure.  Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on that matter but in terms of what credit Trump deserves for his performance during that Town Hall simply showing up does not earn him the credit you're granting him. 

 

Moving on, the response to Pastor Carl was easily one of the worst of the night because Trump barely responded in a way that even approached his concerns.  I will admit, even as I watched it Carl's question was very targeted because it specifically called out things happening today that Trump is within his power to answer because of his added influence.  He asked in relation to Make America Great Again, when has America ever been great initially for the black community.  Trump's response was that prior to the pandemic hitting the black community experienced their greatest moment up to that point. He brought up redlining which loops in Trump's recent removal of anti-segregation housing policies; Trump didn't address that.  He brought up Trump's refusal to address race problems in America; Trump essentially glossed over it and claimed for himself not having a race problem and then saying having respect for everybody and the country is great because of it.  Then on the question of income inequality he immediately blames the previous administration, then the pandemic until he's reminded that it has gotten worse under him regardless.

 

There are many other examples via Carl Day that I can use or many of those in attendance, but the problem persists where Trump is showing up to speak and yet cannot contextualize or support the claims that he's making as it pertains to his leadership.  Yes, what Carl Day mentioned in many respects is systemic and ongoing as many issues were present under previous admins. including Obama's; but Trump is the president now.  What has he done in his time and why could he not convey these things to Carl's very direct and honest questions?

 

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I don't necessarily think every stance needs a long-winded answer either. For example, President Trump wants to restore law and order, he wants police to be able to do their job and I know that that should mean lower crime rates across the country which has plenty of benefits. There is his stance on ending unnecessary foreign wars, which should result in more peace and less American lives being put at risk, both civilian and military. Being concise is important. Too many political figures go on and on talking out of their ass. There's also the matter of actually taking action and not just speaking on an issue. 

 

I agree, not every answer needs to be long winded but a simple answers needs not only be succinct but it also needs to carry the weight of a comprehensive idea.  For instance, what does Trump mean when he says he wants to restore law and order and allow police to do their jobs?  Because that's a lot to unpack considering the climate we're in now where there is division and a reformation movement as a direct cause of some police doing their jobs incorrectly.  Once again, like your mention of him going on ABC into a high pressure environment; you're granting way too much credit on a simple action that doesn't really come with the support necessary to drive that purpose.  Concise is good, but being concise for the sake of it means little if the message at the end doesn't really answer anything.  For example, during the same town hall a woman asked Trump point blank what he'll do about immigration and helping people like her become citizens?  From what you remember do you feel he provided her an adequate response?

 

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President Trump at his rallies is a mixture of his role as the President with his role as an entertainer, being the host to thousands live and significantly more online. He speaks for around 90 minutes, and goes through his agenda for the next term, what is currently going on and what he is currently doing for the country. He will change his tone occasionally. As he covers a subject he looks to be informative on what has been done and sets the expectation that it'll continue to get better, at times emphasizing certain phrases to play to his supporters. Those reactions are generally high energy as "We love you!," "Fill that seat!", "USA!" or "4 more years!" erupts at these events. 

 

I feel as if you are moreso enamored and energized by the spectacle that Trump is able to provide from his "Trump the Entertainer" side than the actual policy making, leadership driving and action taking of his "Trump the President" side.  And that's dangerous for more than a few reasons just based on what you answered to in these few paragraphs.  If you go back I actually asked you two questions, "(1) In what specific ways are they engaging? (2) What talking points are being presented and how does he address them?"  You definitely hit on the first part but I didn't see much from the second.  You said you felt Trump did well in his response during the ABC Town Hall claiming the only misstep was not mentioning opportunity zones.  But from that same man, Carl Day, do you think Trump provided a satisfactory answer around systemic racism in America and the lack of support for the black community in low income areas?  What about his response to healthcare?  Response to the deaths of Floyd and Taylor?  His response on immigration?  And this isn't just about the Town Hall but it comes through in a lot of his interactions where there is criticism of his policies and actions during his presidency.  Can the man energize a crowd?  Sure.  And if that's the barometer for success that people want to use then I guess he does a fine job as an entertainer. But he's also the president, not a jester.

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To be fair to Trump a lot of the questions in that town hall were loaded as hell lmao, but at the same time I don't think he gave an adequate answer to anything he was asked and just went off into the same talking points about how it was all China's fault and the US had the best economy ever before Covid regardless of how related it was to the question being asked. Some of it was completely ridiculous. I can't imagine anybody thinking he gave a good performance there...

 

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STEPHANOPOULOS: Mr. President, you mentioned a number of things here. Let’s talk about the mortality first. You said we’re doing better in mortality than other countries.

But here’s this chart right here. It says the United States is right here. This is number of deaths per million residents. Here’s Western Europe, here, Canada way down there. We’re not at the top of the list.

TRUMP: The excess mortality rate is among the best in the whole world. I mean, I can show you. There’s a chart that just came out a little while ago, excess mortality rate is compared to Europe, compared to other places, it’s about 25 percent better.

In one case, it’s over 60 percent better. And we also have a very big country. You know, this -- we’re talking about a lot bigger than most countries.

 

Trump ignores the chart and immediately lies lol

 

And he's talking about deaths per million residents, but then Trump says how the US is bigger than other countries... It's PER MILLION RESIDENTS, the size doesn't matter. It's so nuts lmao. I can't tell if he's being that dishonest or if he just has absolutely no idea what he's talking about.

 

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STEPHANOPOULOS: But you know we have 4 percent of the world’s population, more than 20 percent of the cases, more than 20 percent of the deaths.

TRUMP: Well, we have 20 percent of the cases because of the fact that we do much more testing. If we wouldn’t do testing you wouldn’t have cases. You would have very few cases.

But he's also talking about deaths... If you increased testing it wouldn't result in more deaths, Trump's answer doesn't make sense. I'm surprised the other guy didn't press him more on this.

 

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BARD: The wearing of masks has proven to lessen the spread of COVID. Why don’t you support a mandate for national mask wearing? And why don’t you wear a mask more often?

 

TRUMP: Well, I do wear them when I have to and when I’m in hospitals and other locations. But I will say this. They said at the Democrat convention they're going to do a national mandate. They never did it, because they’ve checked out and they didn’t do it.

And a good question is, you ask why Joe Biden -- they said we’re going to do a national mandate on masks.

This is the most ridiculous one to me. How do you feel about this, @IU

 

It should be incredibly obvious how Biden wouldn't be able to do a national mandate on mask wearing...

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I'm very glad to see that people understand that "defund the police" doesn't equate to "WE WANT LAWLESS CITIES TO LIVE IN" or anything of the sort.  Police officers are not trained or qualified to handle problems that frankly social workers should be doing.  The whole point is that the police has been militarized and given responsibility over social problems that could be solved by diverting money to social programming.  Instead we let the atrophying of social structures create impoverished people and problems that frankly shouldn't exist in the first place, and we criminalize those things and funnel fodder into the prison complex.

In an ideal world, homeless shelters would receive better funding and safety nets to get homeless people struggling back on their feet, but instead we criminalize homelessness and loitering and put them in jail or prison.  We would have better after-school and lunch programs for kids or better funded fostering programs for wayward youth, but instead they get involved in gang violence and trafficking to get by and spend their lives in and out of juvenile centers.  We would have better mental health facilities, anonymous programs and detox centers running, but instead we leave drug addicts untreated and have people still in jail over weed charges or possession.  Hell, in New York they just passed a law to more discreetly say that public shitting is against the law just so they can arrest homeless people when you could just have more accessible public restroom options.  You have police officers good to go deployed in moments with enough riot gear to look like bad military cosplayers when our medical staff still struggle to be suppled with N95 masks and are still wearing garbage bags and bandanas to work.

THE LAPD's budget this year is over three billion dollars.  It consumes half of the city's unrestricted revenue.  When people say "defund the police", they look at shit like that and are dumbfounded in trying to rationalize how that's okay.

Edited by Edie Napier
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Are we as a society just going to continue acting like fascists can be debated or argued with? This clown talks about trump rallies like it's fucking coachella. Facts and reason don't work on people who are brainwashed. You will go in rhetorical circles and at the end of it all, only have validated his nonsense by treating it like a normal argument.

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31 minutes ago, Young P said:

Are we as a society just going to continue acting like fascists can be debated or argued with? This clown talks about trump rallies like it's fucking coachella. Facts and reason don't work on people who are brainwashed. You will go in rhetorical circles and at the end of it all, only have validated his nonsense by treating it like a normal argument.

The whole point is you use them as platforms to expound on topics and talk more at length.  We aren't looking to convince him, if anything we're just using him as an engine for discussion amongst each other and elaborating on platforms to better inform ourselves. y;

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18 hours ago, Young P said:

Are we as a society just going to continue acting like fascists can be debated or argued with? This clown talks about trump rallies like it's fucking coachella. Facts and reason don't work on people who are brainwashed. You will go in rhetorical circles and at the end of it all, only have validated his nonsense by treating it like a normal argument.

You were the first one to directly quote me in this topic. Actually thought I was going to be left alone until you quoted me around 2 weeks later. If you didn't want to have a discussion, don't quote me or just call me a clown from the get go so I could have a reason to block you. I do agree with @Kezay and @devilsKnife about certain points, I'm just debating when I would like to take the time to respond, because it will take me some time to get to all that has been addressed. I also don't want to stay on the ABC Town Hall too much longer with the first Presidential debate tomorrow. 

Edited by IU
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Maybe it was because we were baffled by your post of praising Trump of all people, that we could not wither find the right words to respond, or that we all dreamt that it didn't exist or we were just seeing things. 

 

But, really, if you saw the posts beforehand, you probably known what you were getting yourself into. We can't truly ignore you, because you posted. You shocked us. Then again, this is a political discussion thread, not a DEMOCRATS ONLY thread. We just have a stronger opinion against him. And, we haven't seen another Trumpster here in some time. Or post here. With how liberal our site seems here, for a lack of a better and stronger word, it kind of seems odd finding a person who supports him.

 

Oh, and, we don't need to talk about Trump's taxes, now that we TRULY know he pays less than the normal person. Those records are OUT. To know that he gets special privilege is really disgusting. How people support a a guy that gets away with that much is... is... 

 

As for trying to debate you... maybe we'll feel better not voting Trump because we'll be so flabbergasted... maybe it's not to "better inform ourselves", as Edie put it, but to point out those contradictions and problems. We're debating because we feel like Trump has done some serious damage to a lot of people as president and just shrugs it off. We're fighting because we don't think Trump has taken anything in his presidency seriously or has taken any responsibility for anything wrong that has happened under his watch. We're debating because not only our lives, but also our family and friends' lives depend on what happens now and next. 

 

I'm not going down saying Biden is perfect. He wasn't even my first choice. I have to swallow my pride, so that Mr. Home Alone 2 "The Entertainer" by Billy Joel leaves the news. Because, I feel like Trump was unfit to run for president for some time. That doesn't undermine the constant problem we have had infighting within our own party. Because if we don't come together this time, Trump will win, and that, for a lot of people, means we lost our future. And, it could happen once more, if 2016 is to show our downfall.  

 

And, I hate that Trump kind of ruined wrestling for me. Because of his handprints in WWE are nearly 5%-10%. But, I got invested in it really late, after SummerSlam 2014. His presence was there since the 80s, and that can not go away. I know that a lot of wrestlers do not like Trump as well, so good for them. 

  

Trump doesn't agree with our values, so when a person comes along and supports him, of course we debate. Expressing our opinions is a powerful weapon maybe more so than just senselessly beating each other up about it with fists. But, maybe it is pointless to argue anymore. Neither side will give up, until it is all over. But, maybe it won't stop after the election. 

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I wore a mask at Walmart today. Three of my lungs collapsed as I got carbon monoxide poisoning from breathing in my own bacteria. A brave patriot wearing an Affliction shirt, a MAGA hat, and sweet wraparound glasses saved me by giving me CPR. I thanked him and asked if he was a doctor and he said “Who needs doctors when we have our fellow Americans, the ones who are here legally I mean.” I hugged him and threw my mask on the ground. The star spangled banner played on the speaker system as everyone in the store ripped off their masks and threw them to the ground, chanting, “down with communism!” God, Jesus, and all the angels looked down upon us from Heaven and clapped.

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