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Vector

On the troubling state of the Pokemon franchise

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BotW is kind of a hard sell to make that comparison by.  There are plenty of games that don't measure up to that pedigree of development and for all the lack of effort those other games have by comparison that doesn't make their efforts lazy in their own right. Aside from the changes the series has steadily seen from iteration to iteration that has advanced its own pedigree, the quality of what it brings to the table is measured in ways that is its own unique brand of entertainment which has allowed it to endure without the need to push the envelope the same way a new Zelda might.  There are areas where I feel like Sword and Shield can improve even from the new stuff that they're doing but it doesn't have to be a transformative experience to make that leap.

 

Also, it's not that catching them all is no longer part of the brand but that emphasis isn't nearly as much a driving point for enjoying the games as they used to be.  That they don't even specifically depict that anymore on a surface level is what's telling.  It doesn't do away with it being a part of the experience for some people it's just a bulletpoint that no longer needs emphasis. I'd wager that the expectation of catching all 800+ currently available Pokemon is not the strongest motivating factor for playing these games anymore.  Seeing what new world they've built and what new Pokemon that inhabit it has been a driving force behind each new iteration and what more players can discover within it.  That much has been true since the original Gold and Silver.

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@KezayWell my point was that it’s clear to see from the end product that Pokémon without regard to the monsters themselves is not a particularly ambitious series. We should be able to expect them to push the envelope a bit like other game series but they really never do. We can agree to disagree on if they need to, but the fact they never push themselves at all is a form of complacency or laziness, in my perspective.

 

Again I disagree sorry. The reality is they built a brand and they’re trying to backpedal on it because it’s more convenient for them. They want new animals/gimmicks to be the series focus, but it’s definitely out of step with a lot of fans and the outcry for this should make that apparent.

 

In any case, if you play Pokémon to see the next region’s exotic Pokémon and the new gimmick and don’t care as much about the older Pokémon or having your favourites together then  that’s fine, of course, all the power to you. And the higher ups at Pokémon have made it clear lately that they care very little about feedback and will just do what suits them, which they certainly have a right to do. But I’m just not sure it is an attitude I want to support for the product I am getting being out of step with what I am looking for.

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Each game has always had some kind of advancement in one form or another whether it be the size of the game world, what can be done in that world and various changes to the content over time that gives each entry its own unique space in the series. By virtue of what you're arguing here, that they place focus on new exotic Pokemon and new gimmicks as their focus, in my eyes, does no favors to the accusation that they're being complacent and lazy when they're actually trying to brainstorm new ideas to add to the experience. 

 

Part of building that brand is acknowledging the changes that come with driving something that is clearly as ever changing as Pokemon has been.  Gimmicks and new animals is not a new concept for the series.  Just about every entry since the beginning has introduced some new mechanic or feature that has enhanced that game in some way.  Some of those features have carried over, some haven't,  but there has almost always been an introduction of something new in these games outside of having new Pokemon to catch.

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Listen, if you’re okay with their approach that’s fine. But giving us the same game with a couple gimmick changes every year just does not scream creativity to me like it seems to for you. And backpedaling on what many players consider a critical element of Pokémon is also not very smart and as I’ve articulated multiple ways now, a sign of laziness in my opinion. We’ll just agree to disagree at this point.

 

But I’m clearly not alone in feeling this way, and the numbers that Ty just showed really speak for themselves. And that’s just on a YouTube video. I guess only time will tell what happens to these games as a result of this issue. 

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That's kind of putting words in my mouth as I never argued that their method of adding to the experience across various games is what I consider some standard for creativity.  That's just where my disagreement comes in if we're going to be talking about laziness and complacency.  I don't want to get into the empty argument of suggesting "they could have done worse, they could have done nothing" but the fact of the matter is a lot of the features they produce aren't necessarily arbitrary additions.  They're ideas that they actually help build the game around for some purpose or another.  That it doesn't go far enough for some people is one thing but to dial it back to zero as the developer being lazy is a generalization that I don't feel is warranted here.  As you said, maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree because clearly we're seeing this from two different extremes.

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Mostly just watching how things are unfolding from the sidelines, but oh lawdy, some of these comparisons.

 

image0.jpg.5ffb28a8e29a27246a2f32793f820427.jpg

 

* Mario is technically the best selling gaming franchise of all time, but if you include merchandise sales, Pokemon is ahead.

 

Smash Ultimate will probably outsell Sword and Shield when all is said and done, but the image still illustrates the power of the Pokemon brand.

 

 

That video Tyranogre's been posting about will likely surpass the Federation Force trailer in number of dislikes at the rate it's going, and I didn't think it would happen at first.

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I can't really see Nintendo, a company so focused on utmost quality and not rushing games, being ok with seeing one of their most beloved franchises turning into a soulless cash-grab franchise. Is there anything they can possibly do to save the series?

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26 minutes ago, Vector said:

I can't really see Nintendo, a company so focused on utmost quality and not rushing games, being ok with seeing one of their most beloved franchises turning into a soulless cash-grab franchise. Is there anything they can possibly do to save the series?

 

Simple:

 

*Stop doing yearly releases. There was a 5-year gap between gens 4 and 5. That should be the ideal length.

*Instead of throwing gimmick after gimmick into the battle system, take the time to fine-tune previous mechanics and expand upon them.

*Hire people who can actually program worth a damn (see my screenshot on the previous page about Lillie's models).

*The games are the most important foundation that the entire franchise is built upon. The anime, toys, TCG, etc. only exist as marketing tools to promote the games. Delaying SwSh to program all 800 mons would cause problems for the anime? Tough shit. Fuck the anime. The games are more important.

*The only online service should be basic trading and battling functionality. Any other modes like Dream World, Festival Plaza, or Max Raid Battles are destined to eventually disappear forever once the servers inevitably go down, and once they do, all that will remain is a pointless waste of development time that could've been put toward a better single-player experience.

*No more sequel hooks. Treat every game as if were the last. Or, if you must make that third version, at least be subtle about it. "Hmm... Why does this Pokemon have the same battle theme as the boxart legends, and why does it come right after them in the Pokedex? Oh well, it was never mentioned in the plot, so it's probably not important."

 

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Posted (edited)

Something to remember is GameFreak isn't part of Nintendo. If GF wants to go publish their own games, say one about a badaas elephant, on every console but Nintendo there's nothing stopping them. Nintendo co-owns the franchise, but aside from footing some bills, their approach to Pokémon is fairly hands off.

 

So if you're confused why GF seems to be taking a different approach than a lot of Nintendo games, that's partially why.

Edited by Ares

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Tyranogre said:

*The games are the most important foundation that the entire franchise is built upon. The anime, toys, TCG, etc. only exist as marketing tools to promote the games. Delaying SwSh to program all 800 mons would cause problems for the anime? Tough shit. Fuck the anime. The games are more important.

This is why I never took the "people just don't understand that there's more to Pokemon than the video games" argument too seriously. Pokemon only really needed like the anime during its first couple years, at least in the West. It doesn't need it to keep going now. It's not that they can't delay the games (with some using the timing of the promotional merchandise's release as an excuse), it's that they just won't.

 

Honestly, the Dynamax battle system does very little (if anything) for me, which they apparently made separate models for, and so others will just see it as a waste of resources of it meant losing the national dex and by extension losing the ability to transfer Pokemon they loved. Also find Dynamax to be the least interesting gimmick they've introduced by far, not that I feel every gen needs a ground-breaking gimmick which kinda started with gen 6, but still. And whose to say that like mega evolution and Z moves, that Dynamax won't also be mostly gone and replaced with some other gimmick when the gen after this comes along? I know there's already a list of people being tired of GameFreak introducing certain features only to not bring them back, and that list will keep growing.

 

Kinda forgot about there being yearly releases now until you pointed it out. Would like if the releases were more spaced out again too like in the past but that's clearly not happening anymore.

 

edit: This also kinda makes me worried for the presumed eventual Diamond/Pearl remakes, and I already felt that the gen 3 remakes were a step down from the previous remakes, but that's just me.

Edited by Ridley Prime

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Tyranogre said:

*The games are the most important foundation that the entire franchise is built upon. The anime, toys, TCG, etc. only exist as marketing tools to promote the games. Delaying SwSh to program all 800 mons would cause problems for the anime? Tough shit. Fuck the anime. The games are more important.

I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything, but I think you're highly underestimating how big the chunk of revenue "licensing/merchandising is for most companies. While I don't know that it makes more than it's games (tbh it very well could I just don't know) it's not just an "afterthought." Pretty much since the late 70s early 80s and Star Wars a lot of media is built around how merchandising. That's not something they'll as boldly claim compared to box office numbers and such but it's actually a huge portion of their revenue. The anime specifically though you're right on, I would only argue it exists to promote both the games and merchandise. 

 

For the record though, I'm not saying that defend them. In fact I personally agree with all your points. 

Edited by Igneous42

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After watching a few videos, including the games' Treehouse live segment, I'm probably going to wait and see if Sword & Shield see an update, there's a third Galar game that allows all Pokemon or just skip Galar entirely. The gameplay and visuals aren't good enough to out weigh the con of missing a large sum of Pokemon for an extra $20. What personally got me was that not even every Pokemon from Let's Go would be able to be transferred to Sword & Shield according to how Masuda answered Bill's question late in the Treehouse segment. Being the most recent main series games, I kind of just expected Let's Go to be fully supported, so I'm glad now that I know that's not the case. If I happen to skip Galar, I think a possible Let's Go Johto is what I would be looking forward to next. 

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image0.jpg.47bf524201ad9bbd4dd39483910935fa.jpg

 

I know visuals aren't everything, but my goodness. I kinda miss Genius Sonority now. If it were still Pokemon on the 3DS I could give it a pass, but for $60 Switch games, the whole presentation is a tough sell.

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8 minutes ago, Ridley Prime said:

image0.jpg.47bf524201ad9bbd4dd39483910935fa.jpg

 

I know visuals aren't everything, but my goodness. I kinda miss Genius Sonority now. If it were still Pokemon on the 3DS I could give it a pass, but for $60 Switch games, the whole presentation is a tough sell.

Yea I've seen that comparison before. Definitely. I hope that they fix things up before release in this regard.

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19 minutes ago, Ridley Prime said:

image0.jpg.47bf524201ad9bbd4dd39483910935fa.jpg

 

I know visuals aren't everything, but my goodness. I kinda miss Genius Sonority now. If it were still Pokemon on the 3DS I could give it a pass, but for $60 Switch games, the whole presentation is a tough sell.

C'mon now That sort of not fair to bring up developer wise, genwise sure.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and all but I feel like this outcry with these stupid developments with Sword and Shield is getting out of hand. I'm pretty sure few of those who are up in arm about these development will not get the game and good for them. Speak without your wallets but for the rest that is what GF care about and is counting on that to say what they doing is okay.

 

Anyways back to the developers, GF most likely over the years have not increase the company size by much when the first were around in the 90's but that is not excuse for display visuals, and oh we cannot possibly animate so many pokemon and how they use their moves. I guess it's easy for me to talk about this because in the end this stuff doesn't really matter to me in the end. That's not say it isn't a bother it just matter what I play these games for. So everybody just what they want and leave it at that because in the end no one is listening to you. That is the harsh reality with Pokemon currently.

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Posted (edited)

 

awesome;

I'm not ashamed to be the "sword" in this case, but is what it is.

 

Maybe a 3rd version or a Pokemon Sword 2/Shield 2 will fix most of the problems people are currently having with this gen currently, but will have to see...

Edited by Ridley Prime

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Well they say opposite attracts but before I said I was gonna get both games digitally I was gonna get Sword.

 

And despite my stance of not being on this game case, I'm not defending, I'm not having affect me by sharing any outcry. I'd be lying to myself if I did. What I hate more than being a hypocrite is a bandwagoner. I can be guilty sometimes as a hypocrite but I rarely a bandwagoner or all. So I can't just hop to side spout something that does not affect me in anyways.

 

I know what I'm buying these game for and it's not what the sword are fighting for nor who the shield is defending either.

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Heck just showed my mom the pic from Sword/Shield and XD and she thought things were horrible in regards to the clarity of the graphics and didn't want to buy the game. Can't say that I blame her for feeling that way. I can see where you're coming from as well, @DLurkster, it's kind of me too, but I still feel as if something is missing there, spirit wise in game. It feels rather sterile right now. Just hoping that the final product has any issues/problems ironed out by then.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Heck just showed my mom the pic from Sword/Shield and XD and she thought things were horrible in regards to the clarity of the graphics and didn't want to buy the game. Can't say that I blame her for feeling that way. I can see where you're coming from as well, @DLurkster, it's kind of me too, but I still feel as if something is missing there, spirit wise in game. It feels rather sterile right now. Just hoping that the final product has any issues/problems ironed out by then.

Yeah, we may not know the state of which Pokemon will be Sword and Shield. I think there's small chance the visuals will improve and I mean small not because of it's GF and they are small just the history of GF. And TBH for this to be the visuals of our first gen game on actual console that is also portable. I don't think it is that bad comparison or expectations wise.

 

I wasn't expecting much in the visual department for this game so maybe that is why I'm okay with the visuals overall. I would have to think and ppl can disagree with seeing that animation takes a lot work with each Pokemon, (which where the whole which Pokemon will be in this, ironically) simply put the resources went to them instead of the world. I think despite what I think that they made a decent enough balance of the pokemons look and world TBH. Again, this is just my expectation and I'm fine with it.

Edited by DLurkster

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