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Eliwood8

Avengers: Endgame Spoilers Thread

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I thought it might be useful to have a separate thread to discuss Avengers: Endgame where we don't have to spoiler tag everything and trip over ourselves to not ruin anything for anyone that hasn't seen it.

 

So: holy shit what a movie. I mean, that's how you wrap up 11 years and 22 movies worth of filmmaking, with a spectacle that truly rewards fans that have been watching since the beginning and remember all of the callbacks and references that have become part of the superhero film zeitgeist. I know Disney will never stop making these films (and I'm sure I'll see all of them in turn) but I think I'd be pretty happy with Endgame as the cap on this cinematic universe.

 

There's a lot to process so here are some scattered thoughts:

  • I was really impressed by the emotional grativas of the first part of the film. It's not at all unexpected given the events of Infinity War but still, it was handled perfectly. Opening the film with Hawkeye's family's disappearance was heartbreaking, and Tony's despair, rebounding confidence, and then sacrifice at the end was an incredible way to send off the character that started all of this MCU business. Beautiful ending for Cap too, as a soldier who finally gets to rest.
  • Revisiting scenes from the previous films, oh man that was so much fun. Cap's "Hail Hydra" moment in  the elevator had the whole theater in an uproar and seeing Starlord dance without hearing the music was a hilarious touch.
  • Cap wielding Mjolnir in the final battle was perfect, another one of those moments where everyone in the theater just wants to stand up and cheer. I love that they brought back that reference to Age of Ultron as well when Thor yells out "I knew it!"
  • The time travel stuff was handled about as well as it ever is when introduced into a work of fiction. That is to say, it might have some holes if you stare too closely at it, but if you sit back and enjoy the ride it works well enough.
  • Somewhat related to the above, with retaining the five year jump in time it's going to be interesting to see what, if anything, significantly changes from it. The biggest question is what does it mean for Spider-Man since he's still a kid so a five year difference is pretty significant for him, but his last scene seems to imply that it'll mostly be a return to status quo for him.
  • Hulk/Bruce Banner's merging seemed a little too simple considering it was a somewhat major issue in Infinity War, but oh well. I would've liked to actually see his two halves reconcile with one another but I'm not too upset that it was glossed over.
  • Honestly surprised Captain Marvel wasn't a more significant part of the film. Her scenes were great but I just expected a more central role.
  • That final battle was epic, I really want to rewatch that just to take in everything happening.

 

Also check out a fun Easter egg on Google: search for "Thanos" and click the infinity gauntlet on the right side of the search results. Then click it again.

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Posted (edited)

There’s that Loki. Chaos is chaos. 

 

Also, when Thanos disappeared, I shouted “It looks like you don’t feel so good now, huh?!” I looked like a moron. But it felt really heartfelt. 

Edited by XLW

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13 hours ago, XLW said:

There’s that Loki. Chaos is chaos. 

 

Also, when Thanos disappeared, I shouted “It looks like you don’t feel so good now, huh?!” I looked like a moron. But it felt really heartfelt. 

 

Poetic justice that Thanos and his army would get dusted in the exact same way he killed everyone in the first film.

 

10 hours ago, Kirbymeister2 said:

How was Thanos able to go in the future again? The Avengers wore suits to shrink down to travel time so why not him?

 

Definitely one of those moments where you have to handwave the logic away. If I had to make up a headcanon answer though: maybe Thanos's minions and ship are so technologically advanced that they were able to cobble together a means for the entire ship to time travel without the special Avengers suit.

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2 hours ago, Eliwood8 said:

 

Poetic justice that Thanos and his army would get dusted in the exact same way he killed everyone in the first film.

 

 

Definitely one of those moments where you have to handwave the logic away. If I had to make up a headcanon answer though: maybe Thanos's minions and ship are so technologically advanced that they were able to cobble together a means for the entire ship to time travel without the special Avengers suit.

 

 Huh.

 

 Also gotta wonder how Neb survived after killing her past self hamcute;

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And like they say when considering killing Thanos as a baby, changing the past doesn't actually alter their present, so the past version of Nebula dying doesn't affect the present day Nebula.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, Nebula wouldn't have to worry about killing her past self because they established time travel didn't work that way. That said, there does seem to be a plot hole with Steve deciding to stay in the past. That should have created an alternate timeline which would mean he wouldn't be on that bench. I've seen some people speculate that he lived out life in an alternate reality and just returned (way) later than he was supposed but then he should have still shown up on the platform instead of over on a bench without a suit on. Which would also beg the question of wouldn't taking the other timeline shield cause issues for that timeline? 

Edited by Igneous42

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Bottom line, any time you introduce time travel as a solution to your problem, other problems come up.

 

I was impressed with the deeply emotional stories told and closed involving so many of the characters.

***I kind of felt like if you read the tea leaves Iron Man and Captain America would probably be dropping out.

 

I thought five year factor seemed kind of arbitrary but maybe it was the amount of time for them to have changes in their lives for the better (or worse).  Thor looking like a member of ZZ Top gave me the LOLZ.

 

Maybe with  _____ ( Warrior Guide girl from Black Panther), Valkyrie, Pepper Pots as ____, Scarlet Witch, Wasp, and ..... they didn't need Black Widow anymore but I did find it odd that with female superheroes being the thing now that her character, of all the female characters would be the one not making it.   Actually, to that end, the whole female brigade scene felt kind of Disney force fed in my book--in other words it felt way to convenient all of them get one big screen shot together before the charge.  It just didn't feel like it would have happened organically in the scene.

 

I found Hulk and The Ancient One's discussion of time/time travel, and time stone kind of interesting.

 

I found ALL of the interconnectedness of earlier movies' scenes to the time travel issues and revelations to be very cool.  I really was probably most find of Thor, his mom, and ___ along with Iron Man, his dad, and a young Hank Pym at Shield.

 

I could see why Captain Marvel could help them but I agree with what someone here said earlier in that she didn't do as much as was looking like she would.

 

The whole Nebula time travel deal and her relationships with Thanos and Gamora got kind of weird to me when they got on Thanos' ship as an earlier movie had her in that same cell with her body being torn apart by Thanos who was looking for some memories and to have that basically come back to but their time travel scenario to come to a hiccup in that scene felt kind of off to me.

 

I wonder why Thor decided to team up with the GoG at the end.

 

I thought it was poetic justice with The Hulk and Iron Man using that Infinity Gauntlet to take Thanos down.  I think Iron Man got the best line by dropping the "I'm Iron Man" and then snapping Thanos out.

 

**********************

 

What does this set up for the future?

 

Thor with the GoG so ....no more Thor's?  We know a GoG 3 is going to happen.

 

Antman... and the Wasp?  I feel there is more there with them.

 

Falcon as the new Captain America?

 

Dr. Strange seems to have a lot more to explore.

 

Black Panther will get a sequel but where would they go from here?

 

Black Widow is supposed to be a prequel.

 

No Iron Man 4 so.....  what happens to War Machine and whatever Pepper Potts and her armor were supposed to be?

 

I'd feel certain their won't be future Captain America movies.  So how/where does that leave Winter Soldier?

 

Where will Scarlet Witch fit in going forward?

 

I believe Spiderman Far From Home is the end of the Spiderman deal with the MCU of this collective.

 

The of course is the biggest linchpin in anything going forward, the XMen tie ins. 

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Posted (edited)

 

 

 RIP Vision.

 

 He can never come back.

 

 Also I hope GoTG3 will have Thor

 

 I found Ms. Marvel being a plot convience half of the time:

 

 IM and Nebs: We're gonna die

 

 Ms. Marvel: Not on my watch

 

 The Avengers: We can't take on Thanos, he's too powerful.

 

 MM: That's because you didn't have me. *They win the the end sort of ish*

 

 Everyone in the battle: Oh no we're gunna loose the Infinity Stones because of the big bad ship

 

 MM: 'sup.

 

 My question to that point is how was Neb's face thing was able to connect with past Neb's one? If that didn't happen; things would've been fine.

 

 But we all have to agree the best part of the movie was CA vs CA

 

 

 -----------

 

 I wonder why Thor decided to team up with the GoG at the end.

 

 Thor wanted to travel along is space I guess. I mean space travels are the best travels since he has nothing else going on with the defeat of Thanos and there ain't gunna be too much powerful villains on Earth

 

 

 Falcon as the new Captain America?

 

 It was bound to happen but my guess it would be "New Captain America and the Bucky?

 

 Where will Scarlet Witch fit in going forward?

 

 She might just tag along with another hero in another movie or just not do anything. 

 

Edited by Kirbymeister2

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Really enjoyed the movie and the theater was pretty amped up too.  I think they did a great job balancing the seriousness of what was going on with some humor and emotion to drive the kind of reactions that would have been appropriate for the scenes on display.  For a three hour movie it did not feel like three hours and that's with me having the opinion that it wasn't nearly as well paced as Infinity War was.  There was just so much to take in within each act that nothing ever really felt like a slog, IMO.

 

I figured there would be additional deaths but I figured it would be more on Cap because if his whole "throwing yourself on the wire and letting the other guy crawl over you" way of heroism.  Black Widow being killed off was unexpected but I guess there would have been no other way to get the soul stone which requires a sacrifice.  Adding salt to the wound was the same theme played from when Thanos sacrificed Gamora. But to see Tony Stark die off like that, it was gut wrenching.  Especially seeing but not really noticing the death flags leading up to it such as Strange telling him that their path to victory won't happen if he tells them this is at that one moment.  And then when the opportunity came up, Strange lifted up a single finger, this is that moment.

 

That final battle was everything, though.  Thor dual wielding Stormbreaker and Mjolnir, Iron Man killing it with all sorts of new weaponry and skills especially when he teamed up with Pepper Potts during the battle with Thanos' army.  But seeing Cap wield Mjolnir was the best and I loved Thor's reaction to it.  Also, as much as I wanted Captain Marvel to dominate I am kind of glad that they didn't allow her to steamroll over everything and take over what needed to be a proper send off for the original MCU team.  She did some damage and I love that the movie made sure to highlight how much of a threat she could be to Thanos.  Just her entering the atmosphere was enough for their cannons to stop raining down on the battlefield and refocus squarely on her only for her to take down Thanos' battleship like kleenex.  But even more to the point was Thanos being crafty enough to pop out the power gem and use its power individually to knock her away.  In a straight up brawl she would kill Thanos (heck, I'm pretty sure Wanda would have done it if Thanos didn't call for the cannonfire), but this wasn't the movie for her to take that win.

 

Anyway, I am curious about what thing.  In the past New York, Loki took the tesseract and space jumped out of there which makes me curious as to what effect that might have.  Granted, they did say that other points in time won't effect the "current" timeline but I can't imagine they would do something like that without a purpose behind it.  Unless I'm missing something it is the one major event changing thing that happens in a prior timeline as a result of interference.  Other than the Thanos/Nebula of the past being killed off.  My girlfriend did say it might link up with the Loki series they're doing on Disney+ later on, so I'll wait and see if that holds up; good theory in any case that I didn't think about.

 

Other things I'm curious about.  What about Ghost from Ant Man and the Wasp?  Because of the way her body is I had this theory that she might escape the snap because of that and be able to help in some way.

 

Where is past Gamora?  Unless I missed something she wasn't on the ship with the other Guardians.  Also, would it even be necessary for her to return to her own time with all that has happened?

 

Speaking of earlier time. What now happens with the Thanos of 2014 and his army being dusted?  One would think it means those in that past and onward don't have to worry about him anymore but what about before that point? (like PB said, time travel solutions just brings more problems, lol)

 

I wonder how a post Endgame MCU will handle these events going forward.  Do governments start to change and adapt in order to address potential seemingly insurmountable threats such as Thanos?  Does it give more weight to an organization like SHIELD to become much bigger going forward?  Could we eventually see the formation of S.W.O.R.D. as a response to that?

 

10 hours ago, purple_beard said:

I thought five year factor seemed kind of arbitrary but maybe it was the amount of time for them to have changes in their lives for the better (or worse).  Thor looking like a member of ZZ Top gave me the LOLZ.

I think the five year gap works because it serves a twofold purpose: one, it gives a point of reference to understand how the world has continued on following the snap.  At the start of the movie it had only been three or so weeks since the event so there was no sense of settlement or that the world has crawled toward coping with the loss of so much.  Five years later, you see how the world has change and the people in it including the heroes themselves. And two, it gives a point of reference for how time works in the quantum realm beyond just Scott Lang saying so.  The world has moved on five years, but for him it was only five hours.  Granted, I do think it makes things very plot convenient in a comic book-y way but I think even the writers knew that as they poke fun at it multiple times throughout the movie.

10 hours ago, Kirbymeister2 said:

 My question to that point is how was Neb's face thing was able to connect with past Neb's one? If that didn't happen; things would've been fine. 

It makes sense to me. If Nebula is connected to a network then I would think any version of herself would be able to connect to that same network.  The problem being the interference of the same network being accessed twice by the same person simultaneously which is pretty much what happened. The other issue is that the past Nebula ends up accessing information that she has never seen because she has yet to experience anything the current Nebula has while the current Nebula already knows of everything the past one does because she has lived through that.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Kezay said:

Where is past Gamora?  Unless I missed something she wasn't on the ship with the other Guardians.  Also, would it even be necessary for her to return to her own time with all that has happened?

 

She is on that ship. Present Gamora can't come back to life, so past Gamora is there. Remember when Hulk failed to get Black Widow? She was sacrificed to get the Soul Stone, remember? 

 

I think present Nebula brought her up to speed during the last fight. 

Edited by XLW

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Posted (edited)

"Speaking of earlier time. What now happens with the Thanos of 2014 and his army being dusted?  One would think it means those in that past and onward don't have to worry about him anymore but what about before that point? (like PB said, time travel solutions just brings more problems, lol)"

 

 Its a another universe in the past so that universe does get saved from the horror of their snap and everyone that wouldve died in Infin War wont but the one that we have kept up within the movie still struggles. So Vision, Gamora, Iron Man, Black Widow would survive. Ant Man wouldnt have been took 5 years to get out of his hell. Events in that universe will be slightly different with new scenarios we wont experience with the one we are following now. The stones are given back with CA because of what the Ancient One said but now different events play out. The problem now is that they wont also have their Gamora and Nebs since they also crossed to the universe we have been following  and Nebs died there so the other Star Lord wont experience his love for Gamora since she was taken out of his universe. His events meeting Rocket, Groot, and Drax change now that Drax has no reason for revenge since their Thanos is gone and dead. Also since the Gamora we have been following is dead, alternative past gamora can take her place without destroying the laws of reality. 

 

 

Edited by Kirbymeister2

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2 hours ago, XLW said:

 

She is on that ship. Present Gamora can't come back to life, so past Gamora is there. Remember when Hulk failed to get Black Widow? She was sacrificed to get the Soul Stone, remember? 

 

I think present Nebula brought her up to speed during the last fight. 

I know present Gamora is gone for good, just curious where past Gamora was because I didn't remember seeing her with the other Guardians when Thor decided to leave New Asgard. I suppose the assumption is that's where she is because her only real connection in that time now is Nebula and what she has told her about the GotG.

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2 hours ago, Kezay said:

Anyway, I am curious about what thing.  In the past New York, Loki took the tesseract and space jumped out of there which makes me curious as to what effect that might have.  Granted, they did say that other points in time won't effect the "current" timeline but I can't imagine they would do something like that without a purpose behind it.  Unless I'm missing something it is the one major event changing thing that happens in a prior timeline as a result of interference.  Other than the Thanos/Nebula of the past being killed off.  My girlfriend did say it might link up with the Loki series they're doing on Disney+ later on, so I'll wait and see if that holds up; good theory in any case that I didn't think about.

 

Other things I'm curious about.  What about Ghost from Ant Man and the Wasp?  Because of the way her body is I had this theory that she might escape the snap because of that and be able to help in some way.

 

Where is past Gamora?  Unless I missed something she wasn't on the ship with the other Guardians.  Also, would it even be necessary for her to return to her own time with all that has happened?

 

Speaking of earlier time. What now happens with the Thanos of 2014 and his army being dusted?  One would think it means those in that past and onward don't have to worry about him anymore but what about before that point? (like PB said, time travel solutions just brings more problems, lol)

 

I wonder how a post Endgame MCU will handle these events going forward.  Do governments start to change and adapt in order to address potential seemingly insurmountable threats such as Thanos?  Does it give more weight to an organization like SHIELD to become much bigger going forward?  Could we eventually see the formation of S.W.O.R.D. as a response to that?

 

With the Tesseract thing I think all we can say for now is that it leaves the door open for more Loki shenanigans, which I'm sure we'd all love to see. Of course, this is a Loki without the same character development as the one that Thanos killed, but we'll see what Marvel/Disney does with that thread.

 

Ghost probably would've been helpful in the final battle, though I guess she's still sort of considered a villain? Maybe she at least could've been the one to rescue Ant-Man instead of a random rat!

 

Yeah there is now technically an alternate universe/timeline where Thanos and his army disappears and Infinity War doesn't happen, but I doubt the film producers will bother pursuing that thread. Alternate universes are confusing enough in the comics, I don't think they'd want to try to convince film-goers to follow two timelines.

 

One thing Endgame does really well is provide a satisfying conclusion to the past ten years of films while still leaving plenty open for future films. It could result in a beefier SHIELD, or maybe the rise of a small European isolationist country, like Latveria?

 

1 hour ago, XLW said:

 

She is on that ship. Present Gamora can't come back to life, so past Gamora is there. Remember when Hulk failed to get Black Widow? She was sacrificed to get the Soul Stone, remember? 

 

I think present Nebula brought her up to speed during the last fight. 

 

Gamora is not on the ship with the Guardians at the end of the movie. Starlord is looking at an image of her that says "Missing," implying she disappeared after the battle. After all, she doesn't know the Guardians, she barely knows this version of Nebula, and a five year time jump/the death of Thanos is a lot to process. I assume at least some part of GotG 3 will involve them trying to find Gamora.

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Oh.  

  

That could lead up to the GOTG3.  

 

I wonder if Peter will talk about trying to cope with his father figure’s passing in FFH. I mean, both had an interesting relationship in Homecoming. Him leaving New York for a while seems detrimental, like he’s trying to move from or run away from where it first started. We don’t see how much Tony’s death has truly impacted him, and he says that “Europe doesn’t need a Spider-Man” might mean he’s trying to move away from his superhero duties. I don’t think the other Avengers were impacted as much other than Peter. Thor left with new buddies, Hawkeye can finally leave in peace with his family, Hulk Banner has already accepted both halves of himself and has another person to think of, and the War Machine guy, forgot his name... was he still with the Potts? Okay, maybe Tony’s best friend and family might be struggling the most, but we might not get a movie from them. And the fact that this is the last P3 movie makes me think that this is like the aftermath. Since Peter’s probably the youngest of the Avengers, he might not try to take the death as better as the rest. Maybe I’m reading into that too deep.

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I've seen people suggest 2014 Gamor was missing because she got snapped by Tony. Not in a malicious sense or anything but it does make some sense. He had never met either version so wouldn't really know to separate her from the rest of Thanos' army.  Though that would kind of defeat the purpose of bringing her back that way, so I dunno if I buy that is what happened. I think there is a good chance she simply left and went on her own path as well, but either plot thread could tie into GotG 3. 

 

I'm curious to see what they do with Hulk. I'm with @Eliwood8 that the merging was too simple. If that's just the end of Bruce/Hulk's large role in the MCU and he's just that from now on I'll be disappointed. On the other hand with wild speculation, I'm also kind of hoping this is setting up for them to take another stab at a Hulk movie. Though as I understand it, a lot of that has to do with working with Paramount in addition to overcoming the fact that the Incredible Hulk was the worst performing movie in the MCU. Even if it wasn't in a solo movie they could continue his story through others. 

 

I've always liked the idea the Hulk's main enemy is actually Banner and vice versa. The idea that their "merge" may not be as mutual as it seems in endgame could make for an interesting story. In Ragnarok, we saw what happens when Hulk takes control and keeps Banner out. I like the idea that what's actually happening now is Banner is taking control and keeping Hulk out, which he was able to do after Hulk got his ass beat by Thanos. The fact that Bruce's spirit body was still just normal Bruce was interesting. That could easily just be aesthetics but I'm hoping there is more too Hulk than just "he got over it offscreen." 

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14 hours ago, Kirbymeister2 said:

Sorry for the long spiel @Kezay

I hope that answered a few things

You're good, spiel away! lol It did answer a couple of things so I do appreciate the detailed explanation.

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