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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion Thread


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On 6/15/2021 at 8:26 PM, Destiny Hero said:

It's definitely to seem more mature. Nintendo is well aware that younger and casual audiences are shifting to not just phone games, but now also cheap multiplayer fads. So the strategy for Ultimate has been to appeal more to the competitive scene. Giving up its main advantage over other games, yet still not faring well in the competitive fighting scene, even before the pandemic.

 

I was never one to doubt Sakurai's skills before, but Ultimate's designs have made a lot of questionable calls.

 

 

I get you but I also don't get you...

 

I mean people are still having a hard on for Melee matches in the "pro community" so....

 

I'd argue they have been pretty balanced on DLC love though....   I mean you cover RPGs with Pyra/Mythra, Sephiroth and Hero....  You cover fighting games with Terry and Kazuya...  You cover "kids" with Steve and Min MIn...

 

The roster overall has enough characters from tons of genres that anyone looking for anything should be able to find something to like and play....

 

I think it has been a smart play to go for some fighting game characters because of Smash's "rep" as a fighter.... considered not one...  and on top of that he's putting in their moves from their own games so its like.... I got you....

 

I don't think the deaths are meant to be too edgy but I guess its showing that you can "die" so to speak....  I somehow think that aspect versus getting knocked off screen is in some weird mental state with players...  like if its a fighting game and i lose my character died..... versus, naw, he just got bounced off the screen.

 

I'm just impressed at a roster this large each character is still super individual.  Aside from the Echo fighters....  No one really plays the same while also paying homage to their games and their character "moves"

 

I also think that this game hits that weird middle ground where with what is there people are in a love/hate relationship with everyone who gets in and who gets left out as choices.....

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That Melee remains so popular is a mark against Ultimate, which was an obvious attempt to replace it and migrate those players onto a new game. No doubt Nintendo has determined that the instant cash grab of Melee HD would devalue newer Smash games and IPs/partnerships and keep those fans from feeling a need to buy anything more to the series.

 

Pandering to fans of combo fighters is pointless. They're not picking up a game with no prizes or online play. Ultimate got exponentially higher sales than Smash 4, yet tournaments saw only marginal growth. It even lost views at its post-debut EVO.

 

Yes, there are still characters for everyone on the roster, but I'm talking specifically about the DLC characters here, who comprise two years of the game's marketing image.

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Melee is unique, and was always going to remain popular no matter what kind of other Smash games would come after. It's not like it and Ultimate can't co-exist competitively. Also too, Melee's scene didn't become as big as it did within a day or year. It took time for the meta, community, and everything to grow. You're being unfair to Ultimate.

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I think the biggest question for Smash as a series right now is....  where do you go from Ultimate?

 

Characters: who stays, who goes?

Stages: what stays, what goes?

*DLC standouts: who stays who goes?

--Coming from the angle of Ryu, Cloud, Corrin... came in as DLC and moved up to main roster from the outset.  Ultimate's DLC faves....?

 

Modes, options, trophies/spirits....

 

************

************

 

I WANT NINTENDO TO SELL A FULL SIZE POSTER OF THE COMPLETE ROSTER THOUGH... I will buy it....  I could also be game for the original roster poster too.....  I'd love to have them for comparison's' sake and the fact I don't think you have this same collection of characters again...

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You don't have to try and top Ultimate (Sakurai knows that), but there's always going to be another Smash, just like how there's always going to be another Mario Kart. This is the undeniable peak though, Sakurai's magnum opus.

 

I've had so much fulfillment from Ultimate, I wouldn't be mad if it was my last Smash game. Depending on the roster/cuts and direction of the next Smash or the one after that, I may skip it. Nothing lasts forever, and if I don't have the same fulfillment with Smash anymore, I'm not obligated to continue supporting it.

 

Mostly speaking in the context of an NU Smash that's post-Sakurai (because face it, Smash is gonna outlive him), but still.

Edited by Ridley Prime
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1 hour ago, Ridley Prime said:

Melee is unique, and was always going to remain popular no matter what kind of other Smash games would come after. It's not like it and Ultimate can't co-exist competitively. Also too, Melee's scene didn't become as big as it did within a day or year. It took time for the meta, community, and everything to grow. You're being unfair to Ultimate.

Yeah, to me one only would feel Melee is impossible peak to surmount if you haven't played all the iterations, IMO. (Correct me for those who think otherwise)

 

I have played every single smash game, and all the DLC in between, the good and the bad with the series. So yeah, there's gonna be some polarizing one to some then others but at the end of the day, it is fucking Smash. Like what like and just own it, don't say propagate Smash legacy with each title. You will look like you don't know what you're saying at some point.

1 hour ago, Ridley Prime said:

You don't have to try and top Ultimate (Sakurai knows that), but there's always going to be another Smash, just like how there's always going to be another Mario Kart. This is the undeniable peak though, Sakurai's magnum opus.

 

I've had so much fulfillment from Ultimate, I wouldn't be mad if it was my last Smash game. Depending on the roster/cuts and direction of the next Smash or the one after that, I may skip it. Nothing lasts forever, and if I don't have the same fulfillment with Smash anymore, I'm not obligated to continue supporting it.

 

Mostly speaking in the context of an NU Smash that's post-Sakurai (because face it, Smash is gonna outlive him), but still.

Yes, if this iteration haven't literally confirmed it, the Wii U and 3DS would of, that said Smash will outlive Sakurai and as much as that is and will be a sad day, the spirit he left in this series will live on in some form. We may not like it down the road but that is no different than how we look at each title he made up to now. What is important is bringing video game franchises together. We may never see a game like this again but that doesn't mean we can't have characters who have yet to join the fold. It may not have the characters we love from Ultimate but it will just be another notch in the belt Smash will achieve in time.

Edited by DLurkster
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Subspace-style story mode, but it's the entire focus that the game is built around. Doesn't have to include every character from Ultimate, but everyone they do include needs to have some role in the plot (i.e. if Sonic, Toon Link, Wolf, and Jigglypuff were only going to show up at the very end, they should've been cut).

 

Go hog-wild with the crossover aspect. SSE had stuff like Samus going through a futuristic enemy base or Link going through the woods, but those were just generic versions of settings that we'd already seen in their own games. Have Donkey Kong travel the Great Plateu while beating up Ardanian Soldiers. Have Olimar fight Metal Face in Dracula's Castle. That sort of thing.

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17 minutes ago, Tyranogre said:

Subspace-style story mode, but it's the entire focus that the game is built around. Doesn't have to include every character from Ultimate, but everyone they do include needs to have some role in the plot (i.e. if Sonic, Toon Link, Wolf, and Jigglypuff were only going to show up at the very end, they should've been cut).

 

Go hog-wild with the crossover aspect. SSE had stuff like Samus going through a futuristic enemy base or Link going through the woods, but those were just generic versions of settings that we'd already seen in their own games. Have Donkey Kong travel the Great Plateu while beating up Ardanian Soldiers. Have Olimar fight Metal Face in Dracula's Castle. That sort of thing.

 

It would be impossible for everyone in the game to be included in such a story mode, given the DLC characters that would still come out after the game, and there's always going to be last minute additions, such as Mewtwo in Melee or Wolf in Brawl. I don't think I have to worry about Ridley going anywhere at least, after how long he had been requested previously and the fact he was always a staple in Smash (except for 3DS version) before he became playable.

 

I hear you on the potential though. SSE really was a concept ahead of its time.

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I have to concur with RP and I think most would when you look at what they did with world of light. Like RP mentioned DLC characters being added after a story mode of some kind is added to Smash. What they did in World of Light is the DLC to mode without you unlocking them by rescuing them, which is not possible because all characters in the game at launch had designated areas to battle and rescue them. So instead of leaving them out, not sure if this was Sakurai's idea but just adding them to the adventure may seem meaninglessness but at least they are in there if want to play them in the mode, even when you beat the mode.

 

So whatever comes next as story with Smash has to go this way, as money talks and I don't see DLC going away when the next one arrives.

 

Tho, we all can't lie SSE was the best thing Smash ever received and we're not gonna see anything like that again no matter how creative you get with any video game characters and the story. You know how convoluted that fanfic will be, no one being honest with them wants that and I feel sorry for anyone tasked with that and actually try to tackle any sense worlds the video game characters will bring to a Smash story.

 

SSE was one of kind and once in a lifetime sort of thing. As RP said it was ahead of its its time and Sakurai spoiled us for those who appreciated and wants more. Back then when Sakurai said he hated how his cutscenes were spoiled online, I thought how ridiculous it was but with enough time pass, I understand now. As it was just so radical to fathom fully then but currently with the storytelling in video games rivalling movies, we can see it, we can understand now what Sakurai was trying do all that long ago. SSE again was ahead of its time. 

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2 hours ago, Ridley Prime said:

Melee is unique, and was always going to remain popular no matter what kind of other Smash games would come after. It's not like it and Ultimate can't co-exist competitively. Also too, Melee's scene didn't become as big as it did within a day or year. It took time for the meta, community, and everything to grow. You're being unfair to Ultimate.

I'm not saying Melee can't coexist with other Smash games, but it's definitely a problem for Nintendo. It devalues future releases, diverts attention from them, discourages purchasing them, and encourages pirating and modding Nintendo's products. It is absolutely in Nintendo's best interest to replace it and get its players on a new game.

 

As for Melee's scene developing over time, that's not a fair comparison. When Melee was released, the internet barely existed and competitive gaming was limited to arcades or rare tournaments which themselves were closer to marketing stunts. Plus when Melee finally did gain steam, it was simply because people hated Brawl so much. If Brawl was even decent, Melee probably would've been forgotten.

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1 minute ago, Destiny Hero said:

I'm not saying Melee can't coexist with other Smash games, but it's definitely a problem for Nintendo. It devalues future releases, diverts attention from them, discourages purchasing them, and encourages pirating and modding Nintendo's products. It is absolutely in Nintendo's best interest to replace it and get its players on a new game.

 

As for Melee's scene developing over time, that's not a fair comparison. When Melee was released, the internet barely existed and competitive gaming was limited to arcades or rare tournaments which themselves were closer to marketing stunts. Plus when Melee finally did gain steam, it was simply because people hated Brawl so much. If Brawl was even decent, Melee probably would've been forgotten.

I don't think Nintendo personally cares that there's a subvert of fans who are always gonna play Melee. Bigger picture they are focused on who they can grab in the now. It's like those ppl are really gonna derail Smash as a whole. They are vocal minority that like to be heard when it comes to their preference in Smash.

 

As said everyone their preference in Smash, all Nintendo cares about is cater to the latest Smash. Damned who unfortunately came before. To me and I want to look at it this way, is that Nintendo can only care what brought them up where they so far to a point they will drop them if it means they can more with what they can get out of current Smash.

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I agree that if Brawl was not as polar opposite from its predecessor as it was (being the most casual focused, slower movement system, having the infamous tripping, etc), Melee would not have persevered after its time as long as it had. Aside from Meta Knight, Brawl's competitive scene died because it seemed to be more focused on shitting on Melee than it was actually building up its own scene, and SSB4's scene died because of how DLC/Bayonetta was in the meta (well it wasn't her alone that killed it, but was one of the factors). As with SSB4, the true test for Ultimate I think will be how its scene manages to go on after all is said and done with the last of the DLC characters.

 

And yeah, the Melee scene has always been a vocal minority, with each Smash after for the most part having sold more than that game. For that matter, the competitive scene of games has always been the minority out of the entire playerbase/consumerbase. Same with Pokemon and such, but they're the ones that keep the games alive in some form after the average Joe has moved on from them. There's nothing wrong though with older games in a series living as a competitive relic, like Marvel vs Capcom 2 that still has a following along with other old games in different fighting series. Melee is just Smash's equivalent of that.

 

But yeah, I see where both of you are coming from.

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  • purple_beard changed the title to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion Thread: Next fighter is Tekken over Smash
8 hours ago, DLurkster said:

Bigger picture they are focused on who they can grab in the now.

That's not Nintendo's time frame. As I pointed out, if they wanted short-term cash grabs, they'd release Melee HD already. But they haven't, because it'd further isolate Melee fans from buying or helping to promote other games in the series. Nintendo's always very clear about how they plan ahead.

 

I agree that Melee's competitive longevity isn't going to tank future Smash games. But remember that Nintendo is a business. From a business perspective, there is little difference between profits decreased and potential profits missed. Melee still discourages potential purchases, diverts attention away from products Nintendo can sell, and encourages modding their software and hardware which further subtracts from consumers' desire to purchase new products.

 

.... All going back into my point that Ultimate was meant to replace Melee, which it failed to do, at the cost of sacrificing appeal to other audiences, resulting in the irony of it being far less effective than Smash 4 at retaining its playerbase.

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8 hours ago, Destiny Hero said:

That's not Nintendo's time frame. As I pointed out, if they wanted short-term cash grabs, they'd release Melee HD already. But they haven't, because it'd further isolate Melee fans from buying or helping to promote other games in the series. Nintendo's always very clear about how they plan ahead.

 

I agree that Melee's competitive longevity isn't going to tank future Smash games. But remember that Nintendo is a business. From a business perspective, there is little difference between profits decreased and potential profits missed. Melee still discourages potential purchases, diverts attention away from products Nintendo can sell, and encourages modding their software and hardware which further subtracts from consumers' desire to purchase new products.

 

.... All going back into my point that Ultimate was meant to replace Melee, which it failed to do, at the cost of sacrificing appeal to other audiences, resulting in the irony of it being far less effective than Smash 4 at retaining its playerbase.

Hmmm, you look at this iteration of Smash like it won't be around much longer.

 

Despite the fighter pass ending soon, like MK8DX. This game has long life before the next Smash so I don't look at what I said as cash grab in the now short term.

 

The longest we had Smash was...oh look at that was Melee till Brawl in 2008 (7 years), then Smash Wii U/3DS in 2014 (6 years) and Ultimate in 2018 (4 years)

 

I don't think we see a repeat of length of Melee but Ultimate will have long life ahead of it.

 

I will agree to disagree here. I see you brought business in your reason and so am I. Currently in how Nintendo is operating with Furukawa, he's a business man, thru and thru. He will try to squeeze what he can get from products now as long as they are able to, Smash is one them so Melee is important to vocal fans but Nintendo doesn't, for now they don't think they can profit from that like they are presently.

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6 minutes ago, DLurkster said:

Why would you show this?

 

It's like I am reliving Travis Touchdown becoming a Swordfighter all over again.

 

No you don't Lloyd and I still shed a tear at that scene in TS3.

 

I say this as a fellow Travis supporter:

 

I dunno, schadenfreude I guess.educate;

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