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Kirby Star Allies


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On 3/6/2018 at 7:19 PM, Laclipsey said:

Now look at Squeak Squad, which isn't exactly a difficult game by objective standards, but there are at least obstacles in your way and the danger of death is very real. Revisiting levels to get treasure chests is an exciting thing not only because the rewards are more substantial, but also because the trials you undertake to get them don't underestimate your ability as a player. There's a real adrenaline rush when one of the Squeaks has got a treasure chest and you're racing him to the exit. The game puts obstacles in your path that actually test your platforming chops and provides you with incentive to challenge yourself.

This is what's ruined all the 2.5D Kirby games for me--they're slow. It took me a while to get into Super Star Ultra because of Kirby's slower movements compared to the GBA engine, but at least the action is still snappy and urgent (and I can obsess over the Wing ability). With the newer games everything is slower and all the precision of sprite-based platforming is gone.

 

The newer games can offer more grand and exciting action, but Kirby's abilities have been buffed so much that any single button press can kill every lame enemy onscreen. The result is a game that excels at nothing and doesn't offer any compelling experience to the player. NSMB syndrome has hit Kirby hard.

 

Maybe Nintendo's trying to keep Kirby as a casual-friendly game, but even the most casual players I know enjoy when their games get creative and difficult halfway through, as opposed to just the final level. They care way more about aesthetics and feel than easiness.

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1 hour ago, Destiny Hero said:

This is what's ruined all the 2.5D Kirby games for me--they're slow. It took me a while to get into Super Star Ultra because of Kirby's slower movements compared to the GBA engine, but at least the action is still snappy and urgent (and I can obsess over the Wing ability). With the newer games everything is slower and all the precision of sprite-based platforming is gone.

 

The newer games can offer more grand and exciting action, but Kirby's abilities have been buffed so much that any single button press can kill every lame enemy onscreen. The result is a game that excels at nothing and doesn't offer any compelling experience to the player. NSMB syndrome has hit Kirby hard.

 

Maybe Nintendo's trying to keep Kirby as a casual-friendly game, but even the most casual players I know enjoy when their games get creative and difficult halfway through, as opposed to just the final level. They care way more about aesthetics and feel than easiness.

  

*looks elsewhere, then somewhere back* 

 

I just defeated the new game within two days, puzzles and all.  

 

And if we had characters that were really fast, they'd all be Sonic. But, they're not. They're not Sonic. I'm sure some players don't play games to speed run through them more than basic exploration. Kirby has no reason to be compared to Sonic. Sure, his story can be completed within a few days, but Kirby's been known for a few more thing more than just speed.  

 

I don't remember any time it was hard for Kirby to kill a simple and basic enemy... Except for the spin-offs. If you're talking about bosses... maybe.  

 

If you want to know how much lives i lost to bosses in the new game: 

 

Maybe 3-5. That's what I got with 3 Ally CPUs.

 

 

And sure, Kirby might not hit a jackpot like Mario and Zelda do... but Kirby's main series games have been, for the most part, very solid because of their simplicity.   

 

As for creativity: 

 

Return To Dream Land: Super Abilities- Extension of Kirby's Copy Abilities... Even though I heard it's only for a few abilities.

Triple Deluxe: Hyper Nova- Extension of Kirby's Swallowing Ability. 

Planet Robobot: Robobot- Extension of Kirby's Copy Abilities, with a gimmick that works well with Kirby's abilities, instead of being a ball, ten Kirbys, or yarn.   

  

I admit Star Allies a little bit weaker because they've done combining powers with Crystal Shards and the combinations here are sadly limited, there's been co-op with Super Star and RTD, and the 4-Friend Friend stuff barely qualifies as something new. To me, this isn't what the New Super Mario Bros formula did, because Mario's power-ups in those games just seem like variations of existing powers and stuff we have seen before, and could easily be replaced with other power-ups we've seen before.   

 

The new games have always tried to expand on what Kirby is known for: copying powers, his swallowing abilities, and his flexible body. Kirby doesn't need to go through a complete overhaul of identity like what Mario and Link recently did. Sure, that might make Kirby one of the safest players in the book, but that's what makes him so endearing after all this time.  

 

Now, if we're talking about spin-offs... Those are my least favorite Kirby games of the bunch. Except for Kirby Air Ride. Unlike Mario spin-offs, which had some of Mario's powers intact... To me, changing the basic formula of what Kirby did completely threw me off. Yes, you could argue Mario went through a similar phase with Odyssey. But, Mario retained his platforming and jumping roots even with the new Cappy ability. Plus, some enemies you transform into play like Mario's old power-ups. His new game extends Mario's abilities to go to places, worlds, and the like, without completely sacrificing his formula. That's why people hated Zelda II: Adventure of Link initially. Because the franchise went from the top-down adventure style to something completely different: a side-scroller. People loved his return to the old formula when A Link To The Past came out. And, maybe that's why people rolled their eyes when PM: Sticker Star came out, and for me, Super Paper Mario. Formula changing and spin-offing is a bit of a gambit, especially when some games throw away what makes certain characters or franchises memorable. Some franchises needed a change, like Kid Icarus or Grand Theft Auto, because they could have been lost in the waves of other better franchises that did the same thing but perhaps better.  But, think of some games from franchises that didn't work as well because they threw away elements of what made older games in said franchises did. Unfamiliarity can be just as scary as familiarity. There's a chance you cannot please everyone if things change or things don't change.     

 

Back on track... 

 

If you want hard stuff... that's what the other modes, Arena and True Arena are for. Boss rushes that test even the most experienced of players, and modes that place another character in Kirby's world, but make it a bit difficult because they don't have Kirby's abilities. 

 

That said... 

 

Don't get me wrong: this new Kirby game is not without faults. Kirby Star Allies is not my favorite Kirby game, because of a few things that I think this game could have done better.  

 

 

Limitations of power combining and bonus content; not to mention CPUs attacking enemies when I needed allies and powers. Also, the amount of times I wanted to make a friend or get a power, but pressed the wrong button by accident. I even swallowed my own allies by accident when I wanted a power. It was a lot simpler in Super Star and its remake.

 

Easiness is also a double-edged sword here as well. I know Kirby games are meant to be easy, and that's because the games cater to children most of all. But, I at least had about more than 100 lives by the end of this game. I felt a little bit spoiled. But, I lost some lives during some parts of the games and during some boss battles. I never got a gamer over once, which is odd, because usually I did once in older games.

Edited by XLW
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To clarify, what I meant about the difficulty of generic enemies was that before, you'd at least get hit by them, especially if you're trying to rush through a level. There were swarms and hazards in close quarters, and many of Kirby's attacks required positioning at a specific angle or right in front of enemies. Now the spaces are much more open and the range of Kirby's every attack is HUGE.

 

It's brain dead enough that you can just hold the attack button and walk forward forever as Yo-Yo Kirby. Water Kirby, you literally just run and your enemies are automatically killed.

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... Huh, I never noticed that. 

 

I could say maybe it was the limitations of the consoles' hardware and space that made such rooms so confined back in the day, but... I'd be lying to say if I had proof of such existence, or if that justifies anything. 

 

Still, I'd rather see a gorgeous background than see a million enemies bombard the screen at random. Maybe once a level per stage, but not enough that it clutters the view.   

 

Plus, I'm sure the newer games have a good amount of confined spaces. But if you meant not nearly enough... I wouldn't know how much of the game you'd want that to be. I think 100% in today's world would be too confusing. 

 

I'm not a level and CPU designer so, or the work that goes into such, so... *shrugs*

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Not by a long shot. I meant to say that I completed the story... but the two other modes are now playable. Remember the helper mode in Super Star Ultra, and the Arenas? Basically those, but Arena's now THE ULTIMATE CHALLENGE. It's not a spoiler, because that's what those two modes are. But, the helper mode is accessible to everyone as well. Sure, the main game is short, but the other modes have made Kirby games last a little bit longer for those who want the extra challenge.

 

Plus, I haven't got every collectible.

 

Love those nods... Just wish there was more...

Edited by XLW
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Good to know. I was worried that this game should have been a rental for me. I don't mind easy Kirby games as long as there is more to do after the main game.

 

On world 2 now. Have 37 lives already, haven't gotten game over. Nothing too memorable outside of the boss battles of the previous world. The spider ability is pretty cool.

Edited by Eliwoodman12
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Trust me, you'll grab like probably over 50 when this game is over. I think they've gotten a little overboard with stars and the 1-Ups. 

 

The songs and the visuals don't grab you?... Well, Kirby's always been doing that. But, you'll-... I can't ask you that question, because it could be spoilerific. So, I won't. But, once you'll get a certain level with a beautiful landscape and beautiful landscape... Then that's good. 

 

There is one level that immediately grabbed my attention of how awe-struck I was.

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13 minutes ago, XLW said:

Trust me, you'll grab like probably over 50 when this game is over. I think they've gotten a little overboard with stars and the 1-Ups. 

 

The songs and the visuals don't grab you?... Well, Kirby's always been doing that. But, you'll-... I can't ask you that question, because it could be spoilerific. So, I won't. But, once you'll get a certain level with a beautiful landscape and beautiful landscape... Then that's good. 

 

There is one level that immediately grabbed my attention of how awe-struck I was.

No the visuals and soundtrack so far has been very relaxing for me. I think it's one of the greatest things in the game so far. I am looking for more unique level designs and soundtrack though. Maybe I'll get what I am looking for as I dive deeper into the game.

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On 3/18/2018 at 9:25 AM, XLW said:

  

*looks elsewhere, then somewhere back* 

 

I just defeated the new game within two days, puzzles and all.  

 

And if we had characters that were really fast, they'd all be Sonic. But, they're not. They're not Sonic. I'm sure some players don't play games to speed run through them more than basic exploration. Kirby has no reason to be compared to Sonic. Sure, his story can be completed within a few days, but Kirby's been known for a few more thing more than just speed.  

 

I don't remember any time it was hard for Kirby to kill a simple and basic enemy... Except for the spin-offs. If you're talking about bosses... maybe.  

 

The new games have always tried to expand on what Kirby is known for: copying powers, his swallowing abilities, and his flexible body. Kirby doesn't need to go through a complete overhaul of identity like what Mario and Link recently did. Sure, that might make Kirby one of the safest players in the book, but that's what makes him so endearing after all this time.  

 

If you want hard stuff... that's what the other modes, Arena and True Arena are for. Boss rushes that test even the most experienced of players, and modes that place another character in Kirby's world, but make it a bit difficult because they don't have Kirby's abilities. 

 

That said... 

 

Don't get me wrong: this new Kirby game is not without faults. Kirby Star Allies is not my favorite Kirby game, because of a few things that I think this game could have done better.  

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Limitations of power combining and bonus content; not to mention CPUs attacking enemies when I needed allies and powers. Also, the amount of times I wanted to make a friend or get a power, but pressed the wrong button by accident. I even swallowed my own allies by accident when I wanted a power. It was a lot simpler in Super Star and its remake.

 

Easiness is also a double-edged sword here as well. I know Kirby games are meant to be easy, and that's because the games cater to children most of all. But, I at least had about more than 100 lives by the end of this game. I felt a little bit spoiled. But, I lost some lives during some parts of the games and during some boss battles. I never got a gamer over once, which is odd, because usually I did once in older games.

Kirby doesn't need to be Sonic. The old Kirby games (see Adventure, Super Star, and to a lesser extent 64) moved at a slightly faster pace that made them more challenging. Even so, I think the challenge of older Kirby games came more from clever placement of enemies and stage hazards than walking speed. Furthermore, there came to be a bad trend right around Return to Dreamland of giving each of Kirby's copy abilities a variety of attacks, and making each of them much more powerful. The reason you'd switch powers in a game like Kirby 64 was because each power only gave you one attack, and that attack was never ideal for all situations.

 

I just went back and replayed a few levels in Squeak Squad to make sure I wasn't misremembering it as being difficult because I was young when I played it. It holds up surprisingly well. Most of Kirby's abilities only give him one or two attacks, with an additional effect being earned through a treasure chest later on. Only a few special powers like Sword and Fighter possess anything close to the veritable arsenal at Kirby's disposal in the newer games. The level design is there, too, especially in the second half. Traversal of the stage often involves more vertical movement that sometimes makes it necessary to utilize Kirby's ability to fly. However, flying puts Kirby in a more vulnerable state, so you play more carefully around hazards. There's difficult terrain to play around and meaningful treasures to uncover. Enemies are placed in inconvenient spots that make you approach them strategically. Trying to play Squeak Squad like a newer Kirby game will get you killed because it doesn't reward recklessness.

 

What remains in the 3DS games feels like a ghost of all of this. The levels have become all about walking left to right, with the occasional platform or pit to break up the action. Enemies casually meander toward you without really trying to hurt you. Sometimes there's a neat puzzle, like using a really long glow rod to flip switches in the background layer of the stage, but it lacks the deliberate nature of the earlier games. 

 

Again, I'm not trying to say the new games are bad. But I stand by what I said about New Super Mario Bros syndrome. Everyone I've talked to about the the NSMB games says the same thing about them, and I haven't met a soul who said their favorite Mario game was NSMB U. It's the same story with newer Kirby games. I have all of these fond memories of Dreamland 2, Crystal Shards, Tilt n' Tumble, Nightmare in Dreamland, and Rainbow Curse, but Triple Deluxe is just a big blur for me, and I can't help but be slightly upset that that's the style of Kirby that seems to be persisting. 

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1 hour ago, Laclipsey said:

Kirby doesn't need to be Sonic. The old Kirby games (see Adventure, Super Star, and to a lesser extent 64) moved at a slightly faster pace that made them more challenging. Even so, I think the challenge of older Kirby games came more from clever placement of enemies and stage hazards than walking speed. Furthermore, there came to be a bad trend right around Return to Dreamland of giving each of Kirby's copy abilities a variety of attacks, and making each of them much more powerful. The reason you'd switch powers in a game like Kirby 64 was because each power only gave you one attack, and that attack was never ideal for all situations.

 

I just went back and replayed a few levels in Squeak Squad to make sure I wasn't misremembering it as being difficult because I was young when I played it. It holds up surprisingly well. Most of Kirby's abilities only give him one or two attacks, with an additional effect being earned through a treasure chest later on. Only a few special powers like Sword and Fighter possess anything close to the veritable arsenal at Kirby's disposal in the newer games. The level design is there, too, especially in the second half. Traversal of the stage often involves more vertical movement that sometimes makes it necessary to utilize Kirby's ability to fly. However, flying puts Kirby in a more vulnerable state, so you play more carefully around hazards. There's difficult terrain to play around and meaningful treasures to uncover. Enemies are placed in inconvenient spots that make you approach them strategically. Trying to play Squeak Squad like a newer Kirby game will get you killed because it doesn't reward recklessness.

 

What remains in the 3DS games feels like a ghost of all of this. The levels have become all about walking left to right, with the occasional platform or pit to break up the action. Enemies casually meander toward you without really trying to hurt you. Sometimes there's a neat puzzle, like using a really long glow rod to flip switches in the background layer of the stage, but it lacks the deliberate nature of the earlier games. 

 

Again, I'm not trying to say the new games are bad. But I stand by what I said about New Super Mario Bros syndrome. Everyone I've talked to about the the NSMB games says the same thing about them, and I haven't met a soul who said their favorite Mario game was NSMB U. It's the same story with newer Kirby games. I have all of these fond memories of Dreamland 2, Crystal Shards, Tilt n' Tumble, Nightmare in Dreamland, and Rainbow Curse, but Triple Deluxe is just a big blur for me, and I can't help but be slightly upset that that's the style of Kirby that seems to be persisting. 

 

Wait... so, you want fast as heck reflexes out of a Kirby game? I'm pretty sure this isn't the 80s or 90s, where even the most casual of games were that hardcore. ... Then again, more kids are grabbed towards T and M rated games as well. Pacing doesn't exactly make or break a game for me, so long as i enjoy the experience as a means of a journey, not to get to a destination. Who knows if I argued against your point at all.  

 

Edit: But, this game has loading screens when such never existed. That kills my enjoyment in the new game. 

 

Plus, Super Star was responsible for Kirby getting more movements of his powers. Don't blame that entirely on Return To Dream Land. They just never brought that stuff back until SS Ultra came around.  

 

As for the levels and space, I'd still be lying if I'd say it's hardware and space limitations. Stuff is much clearer and bigger. Today's games aren't that much restricted because of advancements in such places. But, I don't have solid proof of that. 

 

And as for the 3DS games... it's not like they don't have collectibles and other secrets. Saying that Kirby is without exploration isn't really true. You can argue that the secrets are easier, but I play to find those things as well.  

 

Edit: However... The collectibles these time around aren’t as good as the last two games. 

 

I see the argument of the enemy AI not doing much to hurt you. Then again, most of these enemies are from OLDER GAMES, so do not give new Kirby games faults because of something from his past catching up to him. It's not entirely the fault of a new generation. Still, it would be odd to work around choppy moving animations in a 3D world. And it's not like bosses aren't still spontaneous with their movements.

 

I never saw the merit of NSMB as well. They add nothing to Mario but just copy and paste powers. I still argue Kirby's nowhere close to NSMB yet. At least Kirby has newer bosses each game than just the Bowser kids, Bowser Jr., and Bowser too! And at least Kirby’s older ones manage to get an upgrade! 

 

I’m going to argue that restricting Kirby in any way possible might not make him better. 

Edited by XLW
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3 hours ago, XLW said:

 

Wait... so, you want fast as heck reflexes out of a Kirby game? I'm pretty sure this isn't the 80s or 90s, where even the most casual of games were that hardcore. ... Then again, more kids are grabbed towards T and M rated games as well. Pacing doesn't exactly make or break a game for me, so long as i enjoy the experience as a means of a journey, not to get to a destination. Who knows if I argued against your point at all.  

 

Edit: But, this game has loading screens when such never existed. That kills my enjoyment in the new game. 

 

Plus, Super Star was responsible for Kirby getting more movements of his powers. Don't blame that entirely on Return To Dream Land. They just never brought that stuff back until SS Ultra came around.  

 

As for the levels and space, I'd still be lying if I'd say it's hardware and space limitations. Stuff is much clearer and bigger. Today's games aren't that much restricted because of advancements in such places. But, I don't have solid proof of that. 

 

And as for the 3DS games... it's not like they don't have collectibles and other secrets. Saying that Kirby is without exploration isn't really true. You can argue that the secrets are easier, but I play to find those things as well.  

 

Edit: However... The collectibles these time around aren’t as good as the last two games. 

 

I see the argument of the enemy AI not doing much to hurt you. Then again, most of these enemies are from OLDER GAMES, so do not give new Kirby games faults because of something from his past catching up to him. It's not entirely the fault of a new generation. Still, it would be odd to work around choppy moving animations in a 3D world. And it's not like bosses aren't still spontaneous with their movements.

 

I never saw the merit of NSMB as well. They add nothing to Mario but just copy and paste powers. I still argue Kirby's nowhere close to NSMB yet. At least Kirby has newer bosses each game than just the Bowser kids, Bowser Jr., and Bowser too! And at least Kirby’s older ones manage to get an upgrade! 

 

I’m going to argue that restricting Kirby in any way possible might not make him better. 

I don't want or expect fast-as-heck reflexes in my Kirby games. For that I'll happily go play MegaMan Zero. But the pace of the game has slowed recently, and what you can do as a player hasn't changed to compliment it. Rather, the game gets easier as the pace gets slower. 

 

I'll grant you that in the case of Super Star, Kirby had a ton of abilities for each power. But the moment to moment gameplay of Super Star's main modes is fairly chaotic. Enemies often come at you from several directions at once, actively attacking you rather than waiting for you to bump into them. The level design was less straightforward and made you think about the best approach before committing to it. On top of all of this, it moves fast. It's probably the fastest-moving game in the core series, complimenting the hectic nature of the gameplay. Here, giving the player a lot of tools works well.

 

On the other hand, the slow pace was okay in Crystal Shards because the scope of what Kirby could do to respond to attacks was so limited (IE, one attack per ability, slow walking speed, finite flight). Kirby 64 is slow as all heck, and I still got plenty of game overs. And it's still my favorite Kirby game. It was still challenging despite the slow pace because everything was built around Kirby's limited abilities. 

 

What we've seen in recent years is the opposite. The pace continues to slow while Kirby's abilities become more expansive, and suddenly the player is left with the varied movesets of Super Star and the simplistic level design of Crystal Shards, and what results is a godlike ability to dispatch enemies that don't really pose a threat, anyway, or- more egregiously- scripted cutscenes masquerading as powerups (Hypernova). I should clarify: I'm not arguing to restrict Kirby's abilities or expand them- I think either approach works. But if they do either, I think the level design should change to compliment it. 

 

Anyway, I'm not trying to spoil new Kirby for you. :) For the record, I still like playing new Kirby. I just wish I could get a little more challenge out of it, is all.

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On 3/18/2018 at 10:24 AM, Destiny Hero said:

To clarify, what I meant about the difficulty of generic enemies was that before, you'd at least get hit by them, especially if you're trying to rush through a level. There were swarms and hazards in close quarters, and many of Kirby's attacks required positioning at a specific angle or right in front of enemies. Now the spaces are much more open and the range of Kirby's every attack is HUGE.

 

It's brain dead enough that you can just hold the attack button and walk forward forever as Yo-Yo Kirby. Water Kirby, you literally just run and your enemies are automatically killed.

 

Now that I played Kirby's Dream Land 2 just out of nostalgia's sake, and the fact I never got the true ending, I can say... I prefer the more free space these new games provide more than the confined space. 

 

For one thing, during one miniboss, instead of trying to land down on a platform, I instead landed on some spikes underneath, but I still held the down button, when I didn't mean to happen. 

  

Also, there's fair challenge... and then there's enemies that come out of nowhere. I'm talking about those bandages guys, those rock guys with the mouths that just appear from nowhere, and every enemy that appears from offscreen. And there's those BOMB guys that try to annihilate my animal friends. I thought they would try to destroy Kirby when he's not with a buddy, but... they just savor the moment of animal killing. And, you can't kill or swallow them with an animal, when you really need the buddies. Combine them and their speed with the confined level design, and I just flat out think I'm glad stuff like that is minimal in today's games. I thought those cute-Devil demon Scarfies were terrifying as a kid! And last, some of the blast radius kind of stuff the Scarfies and some bosses and minibuses do are just annoying. AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON AUTOSCROLLING LEVELS, LIKE THE ONE IN 7-7. It's cheap, and does not work really well on a small screen like the GameBoy. I like to die from natural causes, not from forgetting which path to take.  

 

Dream Land 2 can be beaten in a day, but I find some of what was in the older Kirby games to be archaic in today's landscape.

 

But, there were some really cool stuff that I loved as for level design in that old game, especially when it came to the animal buddies. And, I do see how enemies pose much more of a threat... by running. I just think they run a little bit too fast. Last, I found the chain, sword, and boomerang knights to pose a true challenging threat. Especially the sword guy.  

 

The bosses in DL2 are a bit harder... But, that's only because a good amount of reasons, much more than fighting alone vs. fighting with friends.

 

Comparing final bosses from DL2 and Star Allies... is a bit harder.  

 

 

 

 


 

Dark Matter only has two forms, while Void Termina has about five phases to go through. The only way to damage Dark Matter in his swordsman form is to reflect his dark balls, while in his true form, you have to swing the shells Dark Matter tries to hurl at you. Swinging the sword conventionally does nothing. Also, he's a bit harder to evade because of the confinement of space and his movements. Dealing damage to Void Termina in his first phase is hard because you have to find the eyes/ weak points, while you move in a vast 3D world on a star and try to avoid his waves. That's the same for the bird form as well. But, things get a little easier when you go inside him, and you start the last phase of the boss fight. Dark Matter can be beaten when you find out all of the nuances of his design in both forms, and he can be taken down within a minute or three. Void Termina stays a lot longer because he packs a longer health bar and has more phases, but he's easier to finish off. 

 

So, I guess they're equal there, but there are other factors that make them stand out. Getting to them requires some time, but getting the rainbow drops in some levels felt like a total chore. Dark Matter does pack in a bit more "oomph" because of his designs. But, Void Termina reminds me a bit of Majora's Mask. It feels like they're paying back that homage from Link's Awakening. And, remembering that second part from VT's inside was just... crazy and weird. It's a little unfair that Dark Matter had to

 

 
 return more than once, so that he gets more known than this week's bad guy.
 

 

 

Still, I do agree that this current game is a bit too easy. You get rewarded for solving simple puzzles with too many stars and the like. And, maybe some of the hazards are a bit too easy to avoid. I'm looking at you, those electric saw-disks that go extremely... slow...

Edited by XLW
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