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EH_STEVE

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28 minutes ago, luigitornado said:

Twitter idiots: Let's celebrate a movie for its diversity, instead of celebrating a movie for well written characters.

 

I was never a Power Rangers fan, never planned on seeing the movie, but I want to see it even less now. I suppose if Power Rangers would be praised for anything it would be for it's diversity, as the American show was always diverse.

? What's going on now?

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11 hours ago, luigitornado said:

Twitter idiots: Let's celebrate a movie for its diversity, instead of celebrating a movie for well written characters.

 

I was never a Power Rangers fan, never planned on seeing the movie, but I want to see it even less now. I suppose if Power Rangers would be praised for anything it would be for it's diversity, as the American show was always diverse.

 

 

 

Straight white guy: I don't care about diversity, why should anybody else?

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4 minutes ago, luigitornado said:

A great movie or story is not dependent on diversity.

 

In the same breath, a great story or movie is not dependent on skin color.

 

All that matters is the enjoyment for well written characters.

 

 

 

I urge you to try watching movies and TV shows through the lens of being a minority and/or LGBTQ person and see how relatively little you are represented on screen, let alone as one of the main heroes, and try to understand why this might matter to someone different from you. The whole point of movies and storytelling is to express ourselves as individuals. People like to see their own experiences reflected on the screen, because it helps us understand our place in the world. And everyone should have that opportunity. That's why people are celebrating.

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3 minutes ago, Young P said:

I urge you to try watching movies and TV shows through the lens of being a minority and/or LGBTQ person and see how relatively little you are represented on screen, let alone as one of the main heroes, and try to understand why this might matter to someone different from you. The whole point of movies and storytelling is to express ourselves as individuals. People like to see their own experiences reflected on the screen, because it helps us understand our place in the world. And everyone should have that opportunity. That's why people are celebrating.

 

I know what people want, and it's totally lame. I don't believe diversity for the sake of diversity is good for art. There are basic human wants/needs that everyone from different cultures and backgrounds can identify with. A talented writer can take advantage of that and create truly remarkable characters without filling out some superficial checkbox that makes a character more "relatable" on the surface.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, luigitornado said:

 

I know what people want, and it's totally lame. I don't believe diversity for the sake of diversity is good for art. There are basic human wants/needs that everyone from different cultures and backgrounds can identify with. A talented writer can take advantage of that and create truly remarkable characters without filling out some superficial checkbox that makes a character more "relatable" on the surface.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you think people's unique cultural backgrounds shouldn't be depicted in movies? And this is "good for art"?

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11 minutes ago, Young P said:

So you think people's unique cultural backgrounds shouldn't be depicted in movies? And this is "good for art"?

That's not what I said.

 

Diversity shouldn't matter to the viewer. If it's a well written character then you should still be able to sympathize and relate to the character.

 

If I am Chinese then it shouldn't matter if a character is black, white or hispanic.

 

If I am black woman then it shouldn't matter if the character is a seven-year-old Irsh boy. 

 

Conflict is what drives character; and what makes them entertaining, not our individuality being represented in a character. I'm not saying the later is untrue, but it's not something I value, or I see as being above the former.

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1 minute ago, luigitornado said:

That's not what I said.

 

Diversity shouldn't matter to the viewer. If it's a well written character then you should still be able to sympathize and relate to the character.

 

If I am Chinese then it shouldn't matter if a character is black, white or hispanic.

 

If I am black woman then it shouldn't matter if the character is a seven-year-old Irsh boy. 

 

Conflict is what drives character; and what makes them entertaining, not our individuality being represented in a character. I'm not saying the later is untrue, but it's not something I value, or I see as being above the former.

Why shouldn't diversity matter? And why does caring about it make someone an idiot?

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22 minutes ago, Young P said:

Why shouldn't diversity matter? And why does caring about it make someone an idiot?

I think I should make it clear that diversity can drive conflict and that's ace.

 

The diversity twitter idiots want, is not diversity for the sake of conflict, it's the diversity for the sake of representation. Somehow it has become socially acceptable to thrash a piece of art simply because it's viewed as not being socially aware enough, and I don't agree with that.

 

I care about the freedom of expression; and don't like to see creatives being bullied or oppressed because of their character choices are not a proper representation of an individual. It's selfish. I'm not upset that Elliot on the Magicians would rather be a with a dude than a chick. I'm not upset that a gay character is Catholic and attends church every Sunday. I'm not offended that more villains are straight white men rather then women. I don't look for my individuality in stories because a well written character fulfills the need for conflict, is sympathetic, and is still entertaining.

 

And yeah. I don't like twitter as a medium. It's a monster of misinformation sharing, where argument and thought is reduced to headline-word counts, images and how many times a message is retweeted. It's a mockery of communication.

 

I call them "twitter-idiots" because I find the hypocrisy of users of twitter astounding. In one breath the collective mind thrashes a character for culture appropriation, and with another they forget that Power Rangers is originally a Japanese property approriated for Western audiences, but still praise it for its diversity. 

 

Demand better written characters, not a god damn checklist of your own traits.

 

 

 

 

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Your level of idiocy astounds me way more than anything I've seen on Twitter. 

 

The staggering ignorance on display here is laughable. You're getting upset because people are praising Power Rangers for breaking away from normal film casting conventions and having most, if not all, the Rangers white. (Which would be completely unlike the show by the by) You're against this praise because as you so scoffingly put it, characters should just default to white if race has no effect of the writing of the character. Diverse characters based on race or sexuality is stupid because the story does not demand them to be those things, so they should just stay the normal conventional white. 

 

Way to completely miss the basic idea that characters don't need to have story related reasons to be diverse. Black people live in the world, and black people are underrepresented in films when it comes to being a hero. Doubly so for Hispanic or Asian people. Casting actors who have this diverse background in order to more accurately represent the world we live in (something the original Power Rangers was very keen on doing I stress again) is something to be praised when the rest of Hollywood is content to cast generic good looking straight white guys and gals in every main character hero type slot in all of the blockbusters. 

 

Your perception that characters should only be diverse and have characters from a variety of racial or sexual backgrounds should only be done on the strength of "story" is stupidly narrow minded and indicative that you have no idea how to create a good story or how you actually write characters. It is not normal for every person in a story to be straight white and any change to sexuality or race has to have a plot reason for doing so. You're horribly, grossly offensively wrong on every level and you should really just shut up before speaking so people don't have to waste their time explaining something so simple to you.

Edited by Mao
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13 minutes ago, luigitornado said:

I think I should make it clear that diversity can drive conflict and that's ace.

 

The diversity twitter idiots want, is not diversity for the sake of conflict, it's the diversity for the sake of representation. Somehow it has become socially acceptable to thrash a piece of art simply because it's viewed as not being socially aware enough, and I don't agree with that.

 

I care about the freedom of expression; and don't like to see creatives being bullied or oppressed because of their character choices are not a proper representation of an individual. It's selfish. I'm not upset that Elliot on the Magicians would rather be a with a dude than a chick. I'm not upset that a gay character is Catholic and attends church every Sunday. I'm not offended that more villains are straight white men rather then women. I don't look for my individuality in stories because a well written character fulfills the need for conflict, is sympathetic, and is still entertaining.

 

And yeah. I don't like twitter as a medium. It's a monster of misinformation sharing, where argument and thought is reduced to headline-word counts, images and how many times a message is retweeted. It's a mockery of communication.

 

I call them "twitter-idiots" because I find the hypocrisy of users of twitter astounding. In one breath the collective mind thrashes a character for culture appropriation, and with another they forget that Power Rangers is originally a Japanese property approriated for Western audiences, but still praise it for its diversity. 

 

Demand better written characters, not a god damn checklist of your own traits.

 

 

 

 

I think there's a valid point to be made here, but let's focus on Power Rangers. You're annoyed at people on twitter who are praising a movie for having a diverse cast. This isn't backlash or fan outrage, it's celebration. And we're talking about a property that's known for always having had a diverse cast, so it's not like this is the work of some cynical, calculated corporate mandate. This is a property showing a commitment to a part of its identity that people find important and significant.

 

Meanwhile, you're complaining about something totally different. You're bringing up freedom of expression, and creatives being bullied by fans. None of this is part of what's going on. You're conflating the Power Rangers response with a separate, much more complicated issue. You're also complaining about the limitations of twitter, and I'm not sure how that relates to this at all.

 

To respond to your points though, first of all, wanting more diversity is not the same thing as bullying creatives. Sure, there are some cases where the two overlap, and changing some aspect of the characters' identity would potentially undermine the themes of the story. I've seen that kind of thing before. Sometimes people just accuse things of racism or whitewashing when it's totally unwarranted, like the Death Note trailer that came out yesterday. But that's not always the case. For one thing, asking Hollywood for more diversity does not necessarily single out creatives. Often the creatives are not the people who make those decisions, especially in blockbuster filmmaking. Blaming creatives for the lack of diversity is misguided, and shouldn't be lumped in with the general call for more diversity.

 

And I really disagree with the notion that casting someone outside the bounds of the standard straight white guy can only be used to drive conflict. This relies on thinking that the straight white guy is "default." There's no reason any number of generic-ass action movies with plain white guy leads couldn't star someone else instead. White men are the only people who have the privilege of seeing ourselves up on screen as the default, and if it's someone else up on screen, then it's because that's part of the conflict, as if the point of the movie is to justify its lack of a white lead. It doesn't need to be justified anymore than Disney's Robin Hood needs to justify itself being about talking animals. And you don't even have to sacrifice having well written characters.

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...I saw Logan today guys. It was really good. Probably because it was a character piece first, a superhero movie second.

 

I also wanted to mention a movie I saw a few days ago that's still on my mind: Coherence. It came out a few years ago and was made with a shoestring budget, but it definitely leaves an impact on the viewer. I feel like it's best to go into without knowing too much about it, so I'll just say it's about a group of friends having a dinner party and then some strange things start to happen.

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The original five Power Rangers:

Red Ranger - White male

Blue Ranger - White male

Pink Ranger - White female (and total crush of 8 year old me)

Yellow Ranger - Asian female (which is sort of racist...)

Black Ranger - Black male (also sort of racist)

 

So it seems they're more or less sticking to the original. To ME, that's what I prefer. Sticking to source content. It's not a necessity, just a preference. When they were casting the new Spider-Man and people were suggesting they use the 'black Spider-Man' I had no problems with it, because there was one. I get a little fanboy-ish when they cast outside the source content's description of a character, but I'm more than willing to let it slide as they've obviously been cast for their talents and portrayals of the character.

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2 hours ago, EH_STEVE said:

The original five Power Rangers:

Red Ranger - White male

Blue Ranger - White male

Pink Ranger - White female (and total crush of 8 year old me)

Yellow Ranger - Asian female (which is sort of racist...)

Black Ranger - Black male (also sort of racist)

 

So it seems they're more or less sticking to the original. To ME, that's what I prefer. Sticking to source content. It's not a necessity, just a preference. When they were casting the new Spider-Man and people were suggesting they use the 'black Spider-Man' I had no problems with it, because there was one. I get a little fanboy-ish when they cast outside the source content's description of a character, but I'm more than willing to let it slide as they've obviously been cast for their talents and portrayals of the character.

 

If I remember, they changed the Yellow Ranger and Black Ranger for the first film, though that was very circumstantial, and not about race. Something about the two actors not getting paid enough. 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Mao said:

Your level of idiocy astounds me way more than anything I've seen on Twitter. 

 

The staggering ignorance on display here is laughable. You're getting upset because people are praising Power Rangers for breaking away from normal film casting conventions and having most, if not all, the Rangers white. (Which would be completely unlike the show by the by) You're against this praise because as you so scoffingly put it, characters should just default to white if race has no effect of the writing of the character. Diverse characters based on race or sexuality is stupid because the story does not demand them to be those things, so they should just stay the normal conventional white. 

 

Way to completely miss the basic idea that characters don't need to have story related reasons to be diverse. Black people live in the world, and black people are underrepresented in films when it comes to being a hero. Doubly so for Hispanic or Asian people. Casting actors who have this diverse background in order to more accurately represent the world we live in (something the original Power Rangers was very keen on doing I stress again) is something to be praised when the rest of Hollywood is content to cast generic good looking straight white guys and gals in every main character hero type slot in all of the blockbusters. 

 

Your perception that characters should only be diverse and have characters from a variety of racial or sexual backgrounds should only be done on the strength of "story" is stupidly narrow minded and indicative that you have no idea how to create a good story or how you actually write characters. It is not normal for every person in a story to be straight white and any change to sexuality or race has to have a plot reason for doing so. You're horribly, grossly offensively wrong on every level and you should really just shut up before speaking so people don't have to waste their time explaining something so simple to you.

 

I didn't say anything about it being normal to have every character in a story be straight and white, nor did I say anything about plot and sexuality of a established character.

 

If you don't like my opinion then ignore it.

 

You're constant berating is boring, and is counter-productive to conversation and learning.

 

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8 minutes ago, luigitornado said:

 

I didn't say anything about it being normal to have every character in a story be straight and white, nor did I say anything about plot and sexuality of a established character.

 

If you don't like my opinion then ignore it.

 

You're constant berating is boring, and is counter-productive to conversation and learning.

 

No, but you did say you're annoyed when characters are cast because of their diversity before any story related reason for them to be diverse and you called people idiots for praising studios that do this. Pretty sure that leaves the door wide open for beratement. 

Edited by Mao
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4 hours ago, EH_STEVE said:

The original five Power Rangers:

Red Ranger - White male

Blue Ranger - White male

Pink Ranger - White female (and total crush of 8 year old me)

Yellow Ranger - Asian female (which is sort of racist...)

Black Ranger - Black male (also sort of racist)

 

So it seems they're more or less sticking to the original. To ME, that's what I prefer. Sticking to source content. It's not a necessity, just a preference. When they were casting the new Spider-Man and people were suggesting they use the 'black Spider-Man' I had no problems with it, because there was one. I get a little fanboy-ish when they cast outside the source content's description of a character, but I'm more than willing to let it slide as they've obviously been cast for their talents and portrayals of the character.

 

What's interesting is that the original Power Rangers are actually Japanese. So in a sense, the American Power Rangers is again just culture appropriation, something social critics have a problem with. Although it seems that social critics tend to forgive PR because of the team's AMERICAN diversity. 

 

That's kind of in a nutshell why I don't value this type of social critique on on art. They're hypocrites. They value diversity for the sake of diversity instead of celebrating the writing.

 

Danny Rand in the Iron Fist Netflix show for instance. Instead of judging the quality of the writing, people were critical of the show when they announced Danny would be played by a white character. That said, the character writing turned out to be mediocre, but I don't believe a simple swap of skin color would change anything.

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